West Mids Police admit conduct fell far below expectations
Discussion
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-5...
TL:DR Youth says he feels degraded after being stopped and asked for details, and force agrees that his treatment was unacceptable.
Except from the clip recorded by the youth himself, I find that the policeman's conduct seemed in order. The youth was asked for his details and he refused to give them. If I were the officer in question, that would raise serious questions in my mind about what the person was hiding - even if I didn't suspect them of any crime but wanted to ensure that they were out for a legitimate purpose during lockdown.
Do you agree with the force that the officer's conduct was below par?
TL:DR Youth says he feels degraded after being stopped and asked for details, and force agrees that his treatment was unacceptable.
Except from the clip recorded by the youth himself, I find that the policeman's conduct seemed in order. The youth was asked for his details and he refused to give them. If I were the officer in question, that would raise serious questions in my mind about what the person was hiding - even if I didn't suspect them of any crime but wanted to ensure that they were out for a legitimate purpose during lockdown.
Do you agree with the force that the officer's conduct was below par?
The kid had done nothing wrong - why on earth would he give up his personal details. Perhaps if the officer had asked where he worked he may have been willing to supply the details and if the place was in the vicinity - then all good - nothing more to see. As soon as he says hes on his way to work and theres no evidence to the contrary - thats should have been the end of it. How would giving his details establish whether or not hes on his way to work? The Officer got the arse with the kid for no good reason, and as for wrestling him into the back of the car??
Edited by Bigends on Thursday 28th January 21:59
LunarOne said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-5...
TL:DR Youth says he feels degraded after being stopped and asked for details, and force agrees that his treatment was unacceptable.
Except from the clip recorded by the youth himself, I find that the policeman's conduct seemed in order. The youth was asked for his details and he refused to give them. If I were the officer in question, that would raise serious questions in my mind about what the person was hiding - even if I didn't suspect them of any crime but wanted to ensure that they were out for a legitimate purpose during lockdown.
Do you agree with the force that the officer's conduct was below par?
Yes. I appreciate that we don’t see the majority of normal interactions, but in this video and ones like it, some of the Police seem completely devoid of any people skills.TL:DR Youth says he feels degraded after being stopped and asked for details, and force agrees that his treatment was unacceptable.
Except from the clip recorded by the youth himself, I find that the policeman's conduct seemed in order. The youth was asked for his details and he refused to give them. If I were the officer in question, that would raise serious questions in my mind about what the person was hiding - even if I didn't suspect them of any crime but wanted to ensure that they were out for a legitimate purpose during lockdown.
Do you agree with the force that the officer's conduct was below par?
They often seemingly have little knowledge of what their powers actually are, what the law actually is and really struggle when someone doesn’t want to roll over and co-operate, even when they are not obliged to do so.
In my opinion some of them have let policing the latest regulations go to their heads and its bringing the worst out in some of them.
Bigends said:
As soon as he says hes on his way to work and theres no evidence to the contrary - thats should have been the end of it.
OK but as a lay person who has never had any dealing with the police except recently as the victim of theft, I would be happy to give my details to an officer if I were asked for them. Why should the officer take someone at their word just because they say they are on their way to work? Anyone could say that even if it isn't true!LunarOne said:
OK but as a lay person who has never had any dealing with the police except recently as the victim of theft, I would be happy to give my details to an officer if I were asked for them. Why should the officer take someone at their word just because they say they are on their way to work? Anyone could say that even if it isn't true!
Because we are not (yet) a police state...Papiere bitte...
LunarOne said:
OK but as a lay person who has never had any dealing with the police except recently as the victim of theft, I would be happy to give my details to an officer if I were asked for them. Why should the officer take someone at their word just because they say they are on their way to work? Anyone could say that even if it isn't true!
Why shouldn’t they take them at their word?LunarOne said:
OK but as a lay person who has never had any dealing with the police except recently as the victim of theft, I would be happy to give my details to an officer if I were asked for them. Why should the officer take someone at their word just because they say they are on their way to work? Anyone could say that even if it isn't true!
I am split on this. Yes, of course if you 'have nothing to hide' why wouldn't you say where you are going? But the point is that the police cannot just go around assuming people are doing bad things and expect them to 'prove' they are not. That's why we have issues with discrimination and victimisation. The assumption has to be that people are innocent and going about their business unless they do something that - to a reasonable person- demonstrates that they are breaking the law.LunarOne said:
Bigends said:
As soon as he says hes on his way to work and theres no evidence to the contrary - thats should have been the end of it.
OK but as a lay person who has never had any dealing with the police except recently as the victim of theft, I would be happy to give my details to an officer if I were asked for them. Why should the officer take someone at their word just because they say they are on their way to work? Anyone could say that even if it isn't true!LunarOne said:
Then how exactly are the police expected to enforce covid regulations? If everyone refused to give their details, are the police supposed to wave everyone on their merry way?
What 'COVID regulations' are they enforcing? Firstly, why is there an assumption that he is breaching a COVID regulation when there are many allowable reasons to be travelling. Secondly, the COVID regulations say that you have to have a reasonable excuse for being outside your home. There is no complete list of reasonable excuses but one of the examples is going to work. The gentleman says he is going to work. It's a reasonable excuse.
So in my view a) they had no reason to stop him, and b) when they did stop him he gave a reasonable excuse. Does it really need to go beyond that? It already went too far.
LunarOne said:
Then how exactly are the police expected to enforce covid regulations? If everyone refused to give their details, are the police supposed to wave everyone on their merry way?
YES!!!!!! Exactly. Outside of an offence being committed you do not have to give your details.https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-searc...
LOL
Ooh stopped and asked his name, and bundled into a panda car
Ooh terrible
In the late seventies I got arm locked and thrown into the back of a dark blue p5 3500 area car, and punched about ten times by two cozzers
In 84 plod truncheoned a Capri I was sitting in the back of, we got dragged out and beaten, ended up in leman street nick for the night
Called an idiot .
Don’t make me laugh.
Poor love
Ooh stopped and asked his name, and bundled into a panda car
Ooh terrible
In the late seventies I got arm locked and thrown into the back of a dark blue p5 3500 area car, and punched about ten times by two cozzers
In 84 plod truncheoned a Capri I was sitting in the back of, we got dragged out and beaten, ended up in leman street nick for the night
Called an idiot .
Don’t make me laugh.
Poor love
Edited by stuttgartmetal on Thursday 28th January 22:19
CharlesElliott said:
I am split on this. Yes, of course if you 'have nothing to hide' why wouldn't you say where you are going? But the point is that the police cannot just go around assuming people are doing bad things and expect them to 'prove' they are not. That's why we have issues with discrimination and victimisation. The assumption has to be that people are innocent and going about their business unless they do something that - to a reasonable person- demonstrates that they are breaking the law.
Well that's sort of what I'm getting at. Shouldn't officers be able to satisfy themselves that all is in order rather than having to assume that it is? I often see photos of convicted persons posted on Facebook by my local force, and I often think to myself that most of them look like they're up to no good even when just having their photo taken. Shouldn't officers be able to act on gut feelings? I've seen on programmes like Road Wars that officers stop people when their police officers' nose tingles and more often than not, the officer's nose is right on the money.The_Nugget said:
LunarOne said:
OK but as a lay person who has never had any dealing with the police except recently as the victim of theft, I would be happy to give my details to an officer if I were asked for them. Why should the officer take someone at their word just because they say they are on their way to work? Anyone could say that even if it isn't true!
Why shouldn’t they take them at their word?LunarOne said:
Then how exactly are the police expected to enforce covid regulations? If everyone refused to give their details, are the police supposed to wave everyone on their merry way?
Yes. Unless they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed.A bloke is walking down the street alone and says he has been to work. It is not reasonable to suspect he is a criminal and breaking regulations.
A house has 4 cars outside, a party going on - it is reasonable to suspect that the law is being broken.
Maybe if they focus on the latter and not the former they’d be more successful and also be doing some actual good.
CharlesElliott said:
LunarOne said:
Then how exactly are the police expected to enforce covid regulations? If everyone refused to give their details, are the police supposed to wave everyone on their merry way?
What 'COVID regulations' are they enforcing? Firstly, why is there an assumption that he is breaching a COVID regulation when there are many allowable reasons to be travelling. Secondly, the COVID regulations say that you have to have a reasonable excuse for being outside your home. There is no complete list of reasonable excuses but one of the examples is going to work. The gentleman says he is going to work. It's a reasonable excuse.
So in my view a) they had no reason to stop him, and b) when they did stop him he gave a reasonable excuse. Does it really need to go beyond that? It already went too far.
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