Bikers..................
Discussion
I'm looking for other PH views on 2 recent incidents.
The first is on a B road. I'm about 12 cars back from a slow moving tractor. Everyone is 15mph or so. A car is looking to join the road (turn right and head back in the oppositve direction to me), so I check mirror (all clear), brake to a stop and let the driver make her own mind up as to whether to go or not.
I spot a biker coming down the cars behind me (over a double white line) and release and press the brake pedal so he can see some lights and cover the horn. He stops beside me, waits for the car to turn and is then off. He then gives me that wanker sign. I'm still puzzling as to what it is that i did that so annoyed him, given that I was actualy trying to ensure that the other car didn't cross his path.
Secondly incident was yesterday, approaching a roundabout, in right hand lane turning right, about 5-10mph, look right, left and then right, decide to go, see a flash to my right and stop. 3 bikers going straight over the round about at about 40mph. No way could they have stopped if I had pulled out.
Went out for a drive with a friend on a popular road for bikers. His comment was very interesting "I see the organ donors are out in force today".
What could I have done different?
The first is on a B road. I'm about 12 cars back from a slow moving tractor. Everyone is 15mph or so. A car is looking to join the road (turn right and head back in the oppositve direction to me), so I check mirror (all clear), brake to a stop and let the driver make her own mind up as to whether to go or not.
I spot a biker coming down the cars behind me (over a double white line) and release and press the brake pedal so he can see some lights and cover the horn. He stops beside me, waits for the car to turn and is then off. He then gives me that wanker sign. I'm still puzzling as to what it is that i did that so annoyed him, given that I was actualy trying to ensure that the other car didn't cross his path.
Secondly incident was yesterday, approaching a roundabout, in right hand lane turning right, about 5-10mph, look right, left and then right, decide to go, see a flash to my right and stop. 3 bikers going straight over the round about at about 40mph. No way could they have stopped if I had pulled out.
Went out for a drive with a friend on a popular road for bikers. His comment was very interesting "I see the organ donors are out in force today".
What could I have done different?
Incident one:
The biker was an idiot. There are idiots in all walks of life and they use methods of personal transport of all different types. You did the right thing and should forget about him and his childish gesture.
Incident two:
The bikers were being a bit irresponsible because they weren't riding defensively and had left no margin to account for another road user with poor observational skills or a momentary lapse of concentration. However it sounds like something was also amiss with your observation and/or concentration in not seeing them until almost committed to the manoevre. This is how collisions occur - it is the last word in poor communication.
The "organ donor" comment is crass and rather silly.
The biker was an idiot. There are idiots in all walks of life and they use methods of personal transport of all different types. You did the right thing and should forget about him and his childish gesture.
Incident two:
The bikers were being a bit irresponsible because they weren't riding defensively and had left no margin to account for another road user with poor observational skills or a momentary lapse of concentration. However it sounds like something was also amiss with your observation and/or concentration in not seeing them until almost committed to the manoevre. This is how collisions occur - it is the last word in poor communication.
The "organ donor" comment is crass and rather silly.
The hot weather seems to make the "proper" bikers slow down, maybe because they know that hot weather makes car drivers behave more like numpties than usual. (I'm sure they speed up when there's nobody else arund 
)
It also brings out the fair weather bikers who only do maybe 500-1000 miles a year and don't understand what they're doing - these are the organ doners and they really were out in force yesterday. Some of the overtaking I saw made me wince.
It's a pitty that the "proper" bikers get tarred with the same brush. Call them "proper" for want of a better word, maybe experienced, better trained etc etc.
) It also brings out the fair weather bikers who only do maybe 500-1000 miles a year and don't understand what they're doing - these are the organ doners and they really were out in force yesterday. Some of the overtaking I saw made me wince.
It's a pitty that the "proper" bikers get tarred with the same brush. Call them "proper" for want of a better word, maybe experienced, better trained etc etc.
Mon Ami Mate said:
However it sounds like something was also amiss with your observation and/or concentration in not seeing them until almost committed to the manoevre.
I genuinely don't think it is. My observation has improved a great deal since doing some advanced training.
They weren't riding at an appropriate speed for the conditions. There was no way they could have stopped safely. They didn't anticipate a car joining. In fact, I am not even sure how close they came to being a statistic.
Was there a long distance in which you COULD have seen them or did they just appear around a corner? Bikes tend to be harder to spot as the silhouette doesnt noticeably get much bigger as they approch, then suddenly they are right there - this is generally known as 'looming'. I find it harder to judge the speed of bikers when they have their full beam on - I always ride with dipped beam.
Mad Dave said:
Was there a long distance in which you COULD have seen them or did they just appear around a corner?
Hi Dave
No - the approach to the roundabout is obscured by a large tall hedge, so I couldn't see them till they were literally on top of the roundabout. It definitely wasn't a case of me looking but not seeing (if you get my drift).
volvos70t5 said:
Was there a long distance in which you COULD have seen them or did they just appear around a corner?
Hi Dave
No - the approach to the roundabout is obscured by a large tall hedge, so I couldn't see them till they were literally on top of the roundabout. It definitely wasn't a case of me looking but not seeing (if you get my drift).
That was what I wondered. Sounds to me like, as already mentioned, they were not riding defensively - if you could not see them, then they could not see you, or the junction you were waiting in - so they could not have known if it were clear or not, so they should not have been going so fast. Obviously, you should be looking to your right before and during your entrance to the roundabout, which it sounds like you were doing, otherwise you'd have a bike-shaped dent in your drivers' door!
As a biker myself, I must say that the actions of the bikers in these two situations are disgraceful, and something I can't condone.
Situation 1: The biker was probably telling you what sort of chap HE is. He's clearly someone who thinks he knows how to ride properly, but hasn't the faintest idea. I can remember being taught NEVER to overtake at an intersection. Crossing the double whites are a no-no - 'nuff said. Why he suggested you were a w
r is beyond me. If anything, you saved him from becoming road kill.
Situation 2: All t0ss3rs who should have more respect for other road users. I'm assuming here that they suddenly emerged from a blind bend before the roundabout. Surely common sense dictates you slow down at a roundabout, no matter if in a car or on bike?
It's a shame that the idiotic few bikers make the majority of us look like vermin. We're not all like that...honest!
These guys are statistics waiting to happen.
Situation 1: The biker was probably telling you what sort of chap HE is. He's clearly someone who thinks he knows how to ride properly, but hasn't the faintest idea. I can remember being taught NEVER to overtake at an intersection. Crossing the double whites are a no-no - 'nuff said. Why he suggested you were a w
r is beyond me. If anything, you saved him from becoming road kill. Situation 2: All t0ss3rs who should have more respect for other road users. I'm assuming here that they suddenly emerged from a blind bend before the roundabout. Surely common sense dictates you slow down at a roundabout, no matter if in a car or on bike?
It's a shame that the idiotic few bikers make the majority of us look like vermin. We're not all like that...honest!
These guys are statistics waiting to happen.
Mad Dave said:
Mad Dave said:
Was there a long distance in which you COULD have seen them or did they just appear around a corner?
Hi Dave
No - the approach to the roundabout is obscured by a large tall hedge, so I couldn't see them till they were literally on top of the roundabout. It definitely wasn't a case of me looking but not seeing (if you get my drift).
That was what I wondered. Sounds to me like, as already mentioned, they were not riding defensively - if you could not see them, then they could not see you, or the junction you were waiting in - so they could not have known if it were clear or not, so they should not have been going so fast. Obviously, you should be looking to your right before and during your entrance to the roundabout, which it sounds like you were doing, otherwise you'd have a bike-shaped dent in your drivers' door!
Dave
My worry is that they were oblivious to the danger they were in. Next time they might not be so lucky.
Situation 1 - You merely gave some information to another road user who, it seems, misunderstood it. He sounds like a cockeral. Please keep up the good work.
Situation 2 - As we all know, you should give way to the right so the bikers would have had right of way. But it sounds like they allowed no margin of error and there is no point in being 'right' if you are dead, is there?
Situation 2 - As we all know, you should give way to the right so the bikers would have had right of way. But it sounds like they allowed no margin of error and there is no point in being 'right' if you are dead, is there?
rsvmilly said:
Situation 1 - You merely gave some information to another road user who, it seems, misunderstood it. He sounds like a cockeral. Please keep up the good work.
Situation 2 - As we all know, you should give way to the right so the bikers would have had right of way. But it sounds like they allowed no margin of error and there is no point in being 'right' if you are dead, is there?
Immediately after incident number 2 I thought to myself that I would have had very little sympathy if they had had an "off". It would have been much better if the T5 Traffic car behind me hadn't peeled off at the previous junction, but that is sod's law.
The first biker probably guessed incorrectly that you had flashed the joining motorist to come out, or that you had stopped to let the joining motorist out at a time when you should have been able to see the biker approaching from behind.
While it is wise never to overtake by a junction, either of the above actions would have been wrong. You can guarantee that he didn't realise you were trying to warn him with your brake lights.
Hand-gesture rebukes are not wise either. But bikers do come across a lot of motorist behaviour that puts them in danger through a failure to think or to observe. Don't worry about him.
While it is wise never to overtake by a junction, either of the above actions would have been wrong. You can guarantee that he didn't realise you were trying to warn him with your brake lights.
Hand-gesture rebukes are not wise either. But bikers do come across a lot of motorist behaviour that puts them in danger through a failure to think or to observe. Don't worry about him.
Case 1
Well, from my commute of 17 miles into London, 3 or 4 days on motorbike the rest cycling. 90 % of people that encourage cars out from sideturning / drives etc have not checked there mirrors. Get this every day. Unfortunatley the numpties emerging think once flashed or waved out all is safe and clear. When driving I've seen this situation from cars in front whislt sitting in traffic and have waved an arm out of the window for motorcyclist. When driving my car I tried to avoid this situation. You dont have to flash or wave a car out, but leave a large gap, they'll take the bait or not. Rather selfishly you will not of contributed to any unpleasentrys that could arise. Only my view, I know us motorcyclist appear and change lanes very quickly, were not saints.
Oh yeah Case 2. Out for a blat! Mad!
Graham
Well, from my commute of 17 miles into London, 3 or 4 days on motorbike the rest cycling. 90 % of people that encourage cars out from sideturning / drives etc have not checked there mirrors. Get this every day. Unfortunatley the numpties emerging think once flashed or waved out all is safe and clear. When driving I've seen this situation from cars in front whislt sitting in traffic and have waved an arm out of the window for motorcyclist. When driving my car I tried to avoid this situation. You dont have to flash or wave a car out, but leave a large gap, they'll take the bait or not. Rather selfishly you will not of contributed to any unpleasentrys that could arise. Only my view, I know us motorcyclist appear and change lanes very quickly, were not saints.
Oh yeah Case 2. Out for a blat! Mad!
Graham
volvos70t5 said:
Situation 1 - You merely gave some information to another road user who, it seems, misunderstood it. He sounds like a cockeral. Please keep up the good work.
Situation 2 - As we all know, you should give way to the right so the bikers would have had right of way. But it sounds like they allowed no margin of error and there is no point in being 'right' if you are dead, is there?
Immediately after incident number 2 I thought to myself that I would have had very little sympathy if they had had an "off". It would have been much better if the T5 Traffic car behind me hadn't peeled off at the previous junction, but that is sod's law.
Without being there it is difficult to know if my next comment is relevant, but its worthwhile remembering that bikes have very different capabilities to cars - im certain that I could slow from 40mph far faster on my bike than in my car, and being higher up I should see the hazard earlier too.
It is also possible that they were taking the "its my right of way, get off my
racetrack" approach.Mad Dave said:
Without being there it is difficult to know if my next comment is relevant, but its worthwhile remembering that bikes have very different capabilities to cars - im certain that I could slow from 40mph far faster on my bike than in my car, and being higher up I should see the hazard earlier too.
Dave
Fair point but I reckon he perhaps had 30feet of braking and thinking distance - a good portion of that he would ha ve been leaning (left, then right) to get round the roundabout.
volvos70t5 said:
Without being there it is difficult to know if my next comment is relevant, but its worthwhile remembering that bikes have very different capabilities to cars - im certain that I could slow from 40mph far faster on my bike than in my car, and being higher up I should see the hazard earlier too.
Dave
Fair point but I reckon he perhaps had 30feet of braking and thinking distance - a good portion of that he would ha ve been leaning (left, then right) to get round the roundabout.
.....and if you're leaning you can't take full advantage of the extra braking anyway. Sounds like a prize numpty to me.
Scenario 1.
Finding a conflict of info here.
"checked mirror - all clear"
does that mean no-one behind? If so why stop?
If not, i.e. following traffic to be honest I would tend not to put myself in this position. I know it could be considered as a "me first" attitude but you are potentially putting yourself into a position where if it all goes toes up then someone can allege something possibly quite untrue but to your detriment. As in "he waved me out yer 'onour."
Difficult when the traffic comes to a halt and you leave a gap opposite a junction for any potential EV and someone tries to emerge and turn right. Only solution then is to have eyeballs on stalks and be prepared to use if necessary any means at disposal to try and stop someone from emerging rather than encouraging, horn, arm out of window, raised hand palm facing forward as in "STOP!" Of course once you "STOP!" them then you have some responsibility to help control the situation
The only similar instance I can recall from personal experience was on Scarborough Marine Drive. Someone parked nose in on the echelon section underneath the cliffs and was intent on launching themselves backwards from behind a large van. They couldn't see me, I couldn't get eye contact but could see reverse lights and vehicle edging out. Whilst they were maneouvring a biker posse came round the outside of everybody on the wrong side, too quickly and blind side. Arm out of the window as if signalling a right turn stopped them and got a thumbs up from lead biker in return. I think your biker failed the attitude test.
Second scenario, from info given nothing wrong, you recognised the limited vision, took a good hard look and as you were starting to move gave a final look into the place where the immediate hazard would come from. Yep organ donors, not a nice phrase but apt.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Monday 11th July 17:15
Finding a conflict of info here.
"checked mirror - all clear"
does that mean no-one behind? If so why stop?
If not, i.e. following traffic to be honest I would tend not to put myself in this position. I know it could be considered as a "me first" attitude but you are potentially putting yourself into a position where if it all goes toes up then someone can allege something possibly quite untrue but to your detriment. As in "he waved me out yer 'onour."
Difficult when the traffic comes to a halt and you leave a gap opposite a junction for any potential EV and someone tries to emerge and turn right. Only solution then is to have eyeballs on stalks and be prepared to use if necessary any means at disposal to try and stop someone from emerging rather than encouraging, horn, arm out of window, raised hand palm facing forward as in "STOP!" Of course once you "STOP!" them then you have some responsibility to help control the situation
The only similar instance I can recall from personal experience was on Scarborough Marine Drive. Someone parked nose in on the echelon section underneath the cliffs and was intent on launching themselves backwards from behind a large van. They couldn't see me, I couldn't get eye contact but could see reverse lights and vehicle edging out. Whilst they were maneouvring a biker posse came round the outside of everybody on the wrong side, too quickly and blind side. Arm out of the window as if signalling a right turn stopped them and got a thumbs up from lead biker in return. I think your biker failed the attitude test.
Second scenario, from info given nothing wrong, you recognised the limited vision, took a good hard look and as you were starting to move gave a final look into the place where the immediate hazard would come from. Yep organ donors, not a nice phrase but apt.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Monday 11th July 17:15
Flat in Fifth said:
Scenario 1.
Finding a conflict of info here.
"checked mirror - all clear"
does that mean no-one behind? If so why stop?
If not, i.e. following traffic to be honest I would tend not to put myself in this position.
FiF
I should have said that I checked the mirror and it was clear in that there was nothing untoward occuring i.e. just a line of cars behind me. Checked right hadn door mirror and looked down the side and all OK there as well.
Having just gone over the incident again in my mind, I now realise that I didn't actually stop to let the other driver out. The traffic in front had stopped and it just so happened that as the traffic in front pulled away, I spotted this other car and just remained stationary. I didn't give her any sort of signal, but allowed her to decide whether to go or not. As she started to move, Biker boy appeared.
The traffic was very start/stop due to the tractor and the general busy-ness of the road.
I don't think I would have done anything different, TBH. If the biker had not crossed the DWL then everything would have been OK.
edited due to my faulty brain
>> Edited by volvos70t5 on Monday 11th July 17:56
>> Edited by volvos70t5 on Monday 11th July 17:58
Volvo I don't mean this in at all an insulting way but do you or can you ride a bike? I ask because very often what is percieved by a car driver as "dangerous" is not necessarily that bad from a 2 wheeled perspective, In scenario 1 it sounds like there is really no excuse the guy obviously mis read what was happening and decided you were in the wrong, IMO you weren't move on and forget it. However in scenario 2 its a much harder call for numerous reasons, if you'd pulled out did they still have a safety margin of skill, room, and power to go round you perhaps? Are you 100% you would have collected them or could they have out braked, manouvered, or accelerated out of the problem? unless you do have a high enough skill level on 2 wheels you're not really qualified (unless it is blatently obvious of course) to say. There are so many things that change when you move from 4 wheels to 2 that its often hard to say. I know I have a good skill level on a bike and I know what they can and can't do, that means that yes I do sometimes look at things on the road and think "lucky" or even "very lucky" when riders get away with things, I've also got the damage to know that you're not always "lucky" but as a biker thats just something you live with and if you've got a brain (and it still functions with a crash helmet on) you try to minimise.
I've been back to this roundabout tonight to have another look. I genuinely want to understand what I did wrong (if anything) to understand how to ensure I stop doing it in future.
Having parked up, and stood by the roundabout for a little while, I reckon the distance from the point where the biker emerged from the hedge to the potential point of impact is around 60ft.
mel - I'm not a biker though I have riden briefly a few years ago (didn't take the test).
Don't forget that I had already completed the right left right and was rolling when I spotted a flash to my right hand side (lead biker had headlight on) which caused me to stop. It is quite a right rounda bout and there was nowhere for the biker to go. Sure he could have averted a collision with me but at the speed he was going I reckon he would have been in a hedge or the car behind.
I've done plenty of advanced driving and understand about Roadcraft, the limit point, being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, etc..
I have come to the conclusion that there was nothing more that I could have reasonably done to prevent this incident.
I am biker friendly. I always position myself on a road that aids a biker.
If the lead biker had performed an emergency stop, then it would have gone horribly wrong. He would have been braking while cornering. At speed. No way would he have been able to gather it up.
If a collision had occured it may have be a SMIDSY (Sorry mate I didn't see you) - Indeed if he had been riding at an appropriate speed for the prevailing conditions, then we wouldn't even be discussing this now.
Having parked up, and stood by the roundabout for a little while, I reckon the distance from the point where the biker emerged from the hedge to the potential point of impact is around 60ft.
mel - I'm not a biker though I have riden briefly a few years ago (didn't take the test).
Don't forget that I had already completed the right left right and was rolling when I spotted a flash to my right hand side (lead biker had headlight on) which caused me to stop. It is quite a right rounda bout and there was nowhere for the biker to go. Sure he could have averted a collision with me but at the speed he was going I reckon he would have been in a hedge or the car behind.
I've done plenty of advanced driving and understand about Roadcraft, the limit point, being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, etc..
I have come to the conclusion that there was nothing more that I could have reasonably done to prevent this incident.
I am biker friendly. I always position myself on a road that aids a biker.
If the lead biker had performed an emergency stop, then it would have gone horribly wrong. He would have been braking while cornering. At speed. No way would he have been able to gather it up.
If a collision had occured it may have be a SMIDSY (Sorry mate I didn't see you) - Indeed if he had been riding at an appropriate speed for the prevailing conditions, then we wouldn't even be discussing this now.
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