Car accident and subsequent claim with a witness
Discussion
Thankfully I've not had much experience of claiming in my 27 years of driving but that also means I'm a little unsure of things so looking for any advice before I take this further. Sorry this might read like an essay.
Had an accident a couple of months ago at the A12 Green Man tunnel junction, large roundabout with traffic lights at each section. I was at the front of the lights in the lane furthest right (3 lanes) to go around the junction and the lane was marked up correctly, when the lights turn green I move forward towards the next set of lights. halfway to the lights there is a zone marked with diagonal lines to my right and the inside/my lane is marked to move across to the middle of the next set of lights and that the furthest left lane is to take the left turning, in effect making everyone move left one. As ive approached the next lights theyve started changing to amber, im not in a rush so as I move across I slow down to a walking pace, at this point a car on my left clips the front left of mine as they try to go through the light, hits their offside front/rear door. They stop after the lights and another car also stopped, I pulled over to exchange details after the lights change back to green and it's safe to do so. At this point he states they have a witness saying I swerved across the road and hit him, the apparent witness is long gone at this point.
Insurance claim submitted but theyve now come back and said because they have a witness that im aware of they have found in favour of the other party even though I didn't change lane nor have anyone in front of me. I have no idea what lanes the 2 cars were in originally. just that they were to my left at the point of impact.
Any idea what my next course of action is? I didnt expect to win this but at worst I figured 50/50.
Had an accident a couple of months ago at the A12 Green Man tunnel junction, large roundabout with traffic lights at each section. I was at the front of the lights in the lane furthest right (3 lanes) to go around the junction and the lane was marked up correctly, when the lights turn green I move forward towards the next set of lights. halfway to the lights there is a zone marked with diagonal lines to my right and the inside/my lane is marked to move across to the middle of the next set of lights and that the furthest left lane is to take the left turning, in effect making everyone move left one. As ive approached the next lights theyve started changing to amber, im not in a rush so as I move across I slow down to a walking pace, at this point a car on my left clips the front left of mine as they try to go through the light, hits their offside front/rear door. They stop after the lights and another car also stopped, I pulled over to exchange details after the lights change back to green and it's safe to do so. At this point he states they have a witness saying I swerved across the road and hit him, the apparent witness is long gone at this point.
Insurance claim submitted but theyve now come back and said because they have a witness that im aware of they have found in favour of the other party even though I didn't change lane nor have anyone in front of me. I have no idea what lanes the 2 cars were in originally. just that they were to my left at the point of impact.
Any idea what my next course of action is? I didnt expect to win this but at worst I figured 50/50.
The problem is that people just invent random witnesses. One of their friends is called to make up a statement and suddenly your are stuffed.
I had one years ago where someone just drove into the back of me in bumper to bumper traffic, obviously just not paying attention/on phone etc. No witnesses gathered at the scene (even though a few would have seen it) as it was pretty much cut and dried. Initial insurance claim went smoothly based on my description, then a month later the other party came up with a witness and a ridiculous story of me weaving in and out of traffic, slamming on brakes etc. I subsequently managed to prove they were lying but that was more by luck than anything else.
I had one years ago where someone just drove into the back of me in bumper to bumper traffic, obviously just not paying attention/on phone etc. No witnesses gathered at the scene (even though a few would have seen it) as it was pretty much cut and dried. Initial insurance claim went smoothly based on my description, then a month later the other party came up with a witness and a ridiculous story of me weaving in and out of traffic, slamming on brakes etc. I subsequently managed to prove they were lying but that was more by luck than anything else.
Chrisgr31 said:
Where was the other car that also stopped? How did it see the accident?
Thats the bit im not sure about, the other car stopped at the next turning and continued in that direction but I have no idea where the car that hit me or the witness was originally situated when I was driving or at point of impact, as I was at the front of the lights I don't generally look around to see who's there.
I'm at the lights in the right lane where the black car is, marked A12 (E) A113 W'FORD (bottom left), I then drive towards middle lane at next ilghts, again marked A12 (E) A113 W'FORD and about 4-5m from the lights he hits me, you can see from the image that there are diagonal lines on the right.
Witness stops after the lights on the road marked A1199 (top right) and contines down that road afterwards.
I have no idea where the two cars came from, to me it almost seems like they came from behind and both weren't aware that the lanes move across and potentially the witness car was either in the middle lane marked W'ford A113 or A114 W'stow at the first lights and continued around to the lane marked A113 W'ford so potentially 3 cars moved into 2 lanes and im the one that got screwed over when one of them was incorrect.
Unless i've misread the lane markings and someone is going to tell me so
Pica-Pica said:
Just mark up your course of movement, and send it to your insurance company. I assume you stayed in your lane, with lane markings to the right. I do not see how you can be at fault if the other car was behind you at the start of your movement.
That is exactly why I am confused, if I am at the front of the lane and I follow it how can I be at fault in any way, the other car has to be either behind me or in another lane to start with? Unfortunately according to my insurance having a witness trumps this which is why I am unsure what to do next.MyM2006 said:
Pica-Pica said:
Just mark up your course of movement, and send it to your insurance company. I assume you stayed in your lane, with lane markings to the right. I do not see how you can be at fault if the other car was behind you at the start of your movement.
That is exactly why I am confused, if I am at the front of the lane and I follow it how can I be at fault in any way, the other car has to be either behind me or in another lane to start with? Unfortunately according to my insurance having a witness trumps this which is why I am unsure what to do next.Pica-Pica said:
Ignore the witness bit, just mark up your movement. I assume from what you have said, you were in the position of the black car, and kept the lane markings that are to your right, and neither crossed them nor moved left AWAY from them.
Thats what I did with my insurance claim, I showed where I was at the start and my exact route, not changing lane and they have just come back and told me that there is a witness and that nothing I really say matters. I followed the lane marked A12 (E) A113 W'FORD, from the inside where the black car is at the bottom left into the middle never crossing any of the lane markingsSo from your position you had the choice of going into the right hand lane or staying in the middle lane. Anyone in the inside lane should have either gone off down the A12 or been in the inside lane at the next lights.
Perhaps ask the insurance company where the other party and witness say they where. A driver to have hit your front must of been on your left and presumably doing what the white van is doing. However where was the witness? Behind them? Chances of the witness being known to the other driver? About 100%!
Perhaps ask the insurance company where the other party and witness say they where. A driver to have hit your front must of been on your left and presumably doing what the white van is doing. However where was the witness? Behind them? Chances of the witness being known to the other driver? About 100%!
Not particularly useful for the OP on this claim, but I'd consider fitting dashcams if I were you. Get really expensive ones and you can basically guarantee that you'll never have another crash, thus wasting your money. 
For every plonker on YouTube caning it the wrong way round a mini-roundabout with his hand on the horn screaming "CAM RUH!!!" there's hundreds of people who have cameras quietly recording on a loop in case this sort of thing happens and there is an invented witness. I haven't needed to call on it yet but I know someone who had a fraudulent claim against him dropped after providing footage from a supposed collision where no-one actually had a collision... The claimant had "witnesses" too
For every plonker on YouTube caning it the wrong way round a mini-roundabout with his hand on the horn screaming "CAM RUH!!!" there's hundreds of people who have cameras quietly recording on a loop in case this sort of thing happens and there is an invented witness. I haven't needed to call on it yet but I know someone who had a fraudulent claim against him dropped after providing footage from a supposed collision where no-one actually had a collision... The claimant had "witnesses" too
charltjr said:
It doesn’t make any difference to you TBH, it’s still a fault claim.
If I were you I’d shrug and move on.
Best advice. People seem to get too hung up on it all when the difference is negligible at the end of the day. If I were you I’d shrug and move on.
That said I'd probably ask for a copy of the witness's statement.
Is it me or is that a really badly signed roundabout.
The 3rd lane has markings bringing you across one lane, but the others do not, so if for any reason vehicles in the middle lane haven’t seen the marking for the 3rd lane ( other traffic, night, wet etc) they would have no idea the traffic is going to be moving across.
The 3rd lane has markings bringing you across one lane, but the others do not, so if for any reason vehicles in the middle lane haven’t seen the marking for the 3rd lane ( other traffic, night, wet etc) they would have no idea the traffic is going to be moving across.
donkmeister said:
I haven't needed to call on it yet but I know someone who had a fraudulent claim against him dropped after providing footage from a supposed collision where no-one actually had a collision... The claimant had "witnesses" too
except that sort of situation is likely to have no footage unless they are very quick to claim. the loop function means even on a good size memory card, footage will likely be overwritten within a few days. so unless you use cloud storage or manually back up the footage all the time (which is hassle) then chances are that footage will be lost pretty quick.
Spoke to my insurers liability team today, apparently the info provided by the witness and third party confirm that I moved across into the middle lane, which I did. There's not taking into account the road markings, just that I should have a duty of care for other road users when moving across which in this situation they say would be treated as a lane merger purely due to the road markings or rather lack of.
No mention of where the witness or third party started at the previous lights and my insurer admitted that if they had started behind me at the previous lights then they would have been at fault for undertaking but that their insurer does not have to share that information at any stage, only the immediate impact point.
So bugger all I can do about it, even if I had a witness. Only dashcam would have saved me according to my insurer.
No mention of where the witness or third party started at the previous lights and my insurer admitted that if they had started behind me at the previous lights then they would have been at fault for undertaking but that their insurer does not have to share that information at any stage, only the immediate impact point.
So bugger all I can do about it, even if I had a witness. Only dashcam would have saved me according to my insurer.
donkmeister said:
Not particularly useful for the OP on this claim, but I'd consider fitting dashcams if I were you. Get really expensive ones and you can basically guarantee that you'll never have another crash, thus wasting your money.
For every plonker on YouTube caning it the wrong way round a mini-roundabout with his hand on the horn screaming "CAM RUH!!!" there's hundreds of people who have cameras quietly recording on a loop in case this sort of thing happens and there is an invented witness. I haven't needed to call on it yet but I know someone who had a fraudulent claim against him dropped after providing footage from a supposed collision where no-one actually had a collision... The claimant had "witnesses" too
Yep, one in the Mrs' car has already paid for itself - guy trying to squeeze through a tight gap and scraped the rear arch - the video showed us stationary for a good 30 seconds prior.For every plonker on YouTube caning it the wrong way round a mini-roundabout with his hand on the horn screaming "CAM RUH!!!" there's hundreds of people who have cameras quietly recording on a loop in case this sort of thing happens and there is an invented witness. I haven't needed to call on it yet but I know someone who had a fraudulent claim against him dropped after providing footage from a supposed collision where no-one actually had a collision... The claimant had "witnesses" too
Was a simple - here is the quote, here is the video front and rear, transfer the amount of the quote now (£800ish) or please provide your insurance details.....they did the former thankfully.
No help of your current situation, I would only suggest marking your path and detailed notes to your insurer. It will at best go 50/50, too much he-said-she-said these days.
Even if it goes 100% your fault it's irrelevant IMO, hundreds of thousands of people have at fault claims, life goes on (I fully understand the frustration when you know you're not in the wrong, but it's life)
Just fit Dashcams (at least front facing with a nice wide angle lense) and go about your life.
Just don't become one of those idiots who uploads every little close call on Youtube :-)
Even if it goes 100% your fault it's irrelevant IMO, hundreds of thousands of people have at fault claims, life goes on (I fully understand the frustration when you know you're not in the wrong, but it's life)
Just fit Dashcams (at least front facing with a nice wide angle lense) and go about your life.
Just don't become one of those idiots who uploads every little close call on Youtube :-)
mph999 said:
Is it me or is that a really badly signed roundabout.
The 3rd lane has markings bringing you across one lane, but the others do not, so if for any reason vehicles in the middle lane haven’t seen the marking for the 3rd lane ( other traffic, night, wet etc) they would have no idea the traffic is going to be moving across.
Lane one should really have a left arrow painted in it as the only exit that can take is the first one shown.The 3rd lane has markings bringing you across one lane, but the others do not, so if for any reason vehicles in the middle lane haven’t seen the marking for the 3rd lane ( other traffic, night, wet etc) they would have no idea the traffic is going to be moving across.
Lane two is 2nd exit.
Lane 3 op was in is the only Lane that has two options either Woodford like lane two or a12.
Tbh a12 not surprised he found a witness probably his cousin or someone from the same HMO
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