Radically altered vehicles and Q-plates
Discussion
Would this qualify as a radically altered vehicle?
Someone buys a 2009 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi Zetec estate, converts it from an estate into a pick-up but leaves the back seats in and additional doors, effectively making a sort of crew cab.
Someone buys a 2004 Range Rover V8 HSE, converts it to electric, also converts it into a pick-up truck from the original, with dropside pick-up with a flatbed, removing the rest of the original bodywork after the front seats. Sort of like this: https://www.mochofabrication.co.uk/product/discove... - although in my example it's a longer bed, like the Toyota Hilux.
Third example: Ford Transit Custom front end, but 2014-onwards Mondeo saloon/estate rear-end replacing the Transit Custom rear end, if such a thing is possible and there was a way to fit them together, but retaining the Transit's 2.0 EcoBlue diesel engine, but it'd probably require a lot of welding to do this. Would this be the sort of thing a Q-plate would be for, even if both vehicles were 2019 models when started?
As I understand it, the first example would get possibly 8 points, but not sure, but for the second, it would lose points for the engine being replaced with a battery, and suspension, possibly. The third one, probably wouldn't get the 8 points and would be eligible for a Q-plate, unless I'm wrong.
When would the first two get a Q-plate, theoretically, other than age not being proven?
How far do pickup conversions need to go to be considered a radically altered vehicle?
I've done some light Google-ing but aren't sure.
Someone buys a 2009 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi Zetec estate, converts it from an estate into a pick-up but leaves the back seats in and additional doors, effectively making a sort of crew cab.
Someone buys a 2004 Range Rover V8 HSE, converts it to electric, also converts it into a pick-up truck from the original, with dropside pick-up with a flatbed, removing the rest of the original bodywork after the front seats. Sort of like this: https://www.mochofabrication.co.uk/product/discove... - although in my example it's a longer bed, like the Toyota Hilux.
Third example: Ford Transit Custom front end, but 2014-onwards Mondeo saloon/estate rear-end replacing the Transit Custom rear end, if such a thing is possible and there was a way to fit them together, but retaining the Transit's 2.0 EcoBlue diesel engine, but it'd probably require a lot of welding to do this. Would this be the sort of thing a Q-plate would be for, even if both vehicles were 2019 models when started?
As I understand it, the first example would get possibly 8 points, but not sure, but for the second, it would lose points for the engine being replaced with a battery, and suspension, possibly. The third one, probably wouldn't get the 8 points and would be eligible for a Q-plate, unless I'm wrong.
When would the first two get a Q-plate, theoretically, other than age not being proven?
How far do pickup conversions need to go to be considered a radically altered vehicle?
I've done some light Google-ing but aren't sure.
Taken from the .gov site
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.
So you'll lose the 5 points for the body when chopping up a car to make a pickup. T
he car will also need to pass the IVA test which can be loads of fun!!
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.
So you'll lose the 5 points for the body when chopping up a car to make a pickup. T
he car will also need to pass the IVA test which can be loads of fun!!
westheath86 said:
Third example: Ford Transit Custom front end, but 2014-onwards Mondeo saloon/estate rear-end replacing the Transit Custom rear end, if such a thing is possible and there was a way to fit them together, but retaining the Transit's 2.0 EcoBlue diesel engine, but it'd probably require a lot of welding to do this. Would this be the sort of thing a Q-plate would be for, even if both vehicles were 2019 models when started?
Something to replace the green M3 estate, perhaps? 
westheath86 said:
Would this qualify as a radically altered vehicle?
Someone buys a 2009 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi Zetec estate, converts it from an estate into a pick-up but leaves the back seats in and additional doors, effectively making a sort of crew cab.
Someone buys a 2004 Range Rover V8 HSE, converts it to electric, also converts it into a pick-up truck from the original, with dropside pick-up with a flatbed, removing the rest of the original bodywork after the front seats. Sort of like this: https://www.mochofabrication.co.uk/product/discove... - although in my example it's a longer bed, like the Toyota Hilux.
Third example: Ford Transit Custom front end, but 2014-onwards Mondeo saloon/estate rear-end replacing the Transit Custom rear end, if such a thing is possible and there was a way to fit them together, but retaining the Transit's 2.0 EcoBlue diesel engine, but it'd probably require a lot of welding to do this. Would this be the sort of thing a Q-plate would be for, even if both vehicles were 2019 models when started?
As I understand it, the first example would get possibly 8 points, but not sure, but for the second, it would lose points for the engine being replaced with a battery, and suspension, possibly. The third one, probably wouldn't get the 8 points and would be eligible for a Q-plate, unless I'm wrong.
When would the first two get a Q-plate, theoretically, other than age not being proven?
How far do pickup conversions need to go to be considered a radically altered vehicle?
I've done some light Google-ing but aren't sure.
First one, as soon as you cut into the body you've changed the monocoque so it's an IVA and because you lose the 5pts from an unaltered body it's a Q plate - age or provenance of parts doesn't come into it in that instance.Someone buys a 2009 Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi Zetec estate, converts it from an estate into a pick-up but leaves the back seats in and additional doors, effectively making a sort of crew cab.
Someone buys a 2004 Range Rover V8 HSE, converts it to electric, also converts it into a pick-up truck from the original, with dropside pick-up with a flatbed, removing the rest of the original bodywork after the front seats. Sort of like this: https://www.mochofabrication.co.uk/product/discove... - although in my example it's a longer bed, like the Toyota Hilux.
Third example: Ford Transit Custom front end, but 2014-onwards Mondeo saloon/estate rear-end replacing the Transit Custom rear end, if such a thing is possible and there was a way to fit them together, but retaining the Transit's 2.0 EcoBlue diesel engine, but it'd probably require a lot of welding to do this. Would this be the sort of thing a Q-plate would be for, even if both vehicles were 2019 models when started?
As I understand it, the first example would get possibly 8 points, but not sure, but for the second, it would lose points for the engine being replaced with a battery, and suspension, possibly. The third one, probably wouldn't get the 8 points and would be eligible for a Q-plate, unless I'm wrong.
When would the first two get a Q-plate, theoretically, other than age not being proven?
How far do pickup conversions need to go to be considered a radically altered vehicle?
I've done some light Google-ing but aren't sure.
Second one, it's a body-on-frame vehicle so if the chassis is unaltered you can do what you want to the body, but depending how you fit electric motors:
- option one, electric motor driving through the T-case, retaining original chassis, axles, suspension and steering - 11 pts - no problem
- option two, replace axles with electric motors, that immediately bins the original engine, transmission and axles: 5pts for unaltered chassis, 2pts if you could retain the steering in its entirety, so you'd need a front motor that works with a front mounted steering rack... you'd also need to retain the suspension to score >8pts and on the L322, that's probably doable but bear in mind you can easily trip up on details when you need to fit a motor to suit a fixed axle position but also respect a fixed steering rack and column position and can't move suspension hard points, for example.
Third one, depends if there's space for the Mondeo suspension without cutting the body. You would fabricate a new subframe to take the Mondeo arms, or maybe (not likely) bracketry to bolt the Mondeo rear subframe on, but as soon as you're doing more than drilling a hole or two to fit that frame / bracket on, you lose the 5pts for unaltered monocoque so it's IVA time. Likelihood of being able to drill holes to accept a load bearing structure like a subframe and not need to also brace the body in the areas the frame bolts to is very low. It might be possible to reuse existing strong points on the underbody, it's probably the only way you'd get away with it.
If you weren't starting with a RWD transit I'd also expect there isn't the height under the floor to accept an independent rear end - the FWD transit is FWD so that it offers a lower loading area. RWD takes a live axle complete with decent amount of suspension travel, so it might fit. Is there a driven rear axle offered on the Mondeo? Could it take the power from whatever engine was fitted, assuming it was originally intended for AWD? I suspect you'd need to convert the front end too, and fit a complete Mondeo AWD engine and driveline, or break rear diffs every ten minutes.
Edited by FNG on Wednesday 22 September 08:35
Cutting a hole in an unstressed skin to accept a non structural and non load inducing component won't affect structural integrity or impact upon occupant safety.
I guess for clarity, because you do raise a good point, they don't want you cutting through structural sections or reducing strength or stiffness.
Certainly used to be the case that taking a monocoque and cutting off the outer skins then bonding on GRP ones was ok - for example the MR2 based Ferrari replicas or the MR2 Roadster based RS200 replica - which would reduce torsional stiffness and arguably reduce crash protection vs the OE donor car.
I've heard (but not seen confirmed) that this is considered these days to be weakening the structure / reducing stiffness, and so isn't allowed. May be hearsay though.
I guess for clarity, because you do raise a good point, they don't want you cutting through structural sections or reducing strength or stiffness.
Certainly used to be the case that taking a monocoque and cutting off the outer skins then bonding on GRP ones was ok - for example the MR2 based Ferrari replicas or the MR2 Roadster based RS200 replica - which would reduce torsional stiffness and arguably reduce crash protection vs the OE donor car.
I've heard (but not seen confirmed) that this is considered these days to be weakening the structure / reducing stiffness, and so isn't allowed. May be hearsay though.
Pamoothican said:
Taken from the .gov site
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.
So you'll lose the 5 points for the body when chopping up a car to make a pickup. T
he car will also need to pass the IVA test which can be loads of fun!!
So, does that mean that if you take a perfect chassis from, say, a wrecked TVR and put it onto another one as a replacement for a corroded one then the one you are repairing gets a Q-plate?Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.
So you'll lose the 5 points for the body when chopping up a car to make a pickup. T
he car will also need to pass the IVA test which can be loads of fun!!
Edit: How does this points thing work?
AJL308 said:
Pamoothican said:
Taken from the .gov site
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.
So you'll lose the 5 points for the body when chopping up a car to make a pickup. T
he car will also need to pass the IVA test which can be loads of fun!!
So, does that mean that if you take a perfect chassis from, say, a wrecked TVR and put it onto another one as a replacement for a corroded one then the one you are repairing gets a Q-plate?Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
it has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.
So you'll lose the 5 points for the body when chopping up a car to make a pickup. T
he car will also need to pass the IVA test which can be loads of fun!!
Edit: How does this points thing work?
Could you prove the panel was removed with zero damage to the remaining bodyshell and then a new panel welded in to OE manufacturing standards and tolerances, to the entire satisfaction of a VOSA inspector?
I'd be very surprised (but pleased) if you could.
It's a bit of a mockery of a system - when you look at the standard of repair deemed acceptable for an MoT, or the need for a continuous seam around any welded-in patch in order to meet MoT standards even if the area was only spot welded from the factory, for example - but they've erred massively on the side of caution with the rules and are safe as houses behind "unmodified". Anything else breeds ambiguity, judgement, and in extreme cases potentially liability.
I'd be very surprised (but pleased) if you could.
It's a bit of a mockery of a system - when you look at the standard of repair deemed acceptable for an MoT, or the need for a continuous seam around any welded-in patch in order to meet MoT standards even if the area was only spot welded from the factory, for example - but they've erred massively on the side of caution with the rules and are safe as houses behind "unmodified". Anything else breeds ambiguity, judgement, and in extreme cases potentially liability.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff