3 PCNs in a row on same day - help please!

[aleadie]

In a bit of trouble here. Would welcome some advice
I already have 3 points for speeding but wasn't given option of speed awareness course

Was heading down dual carraigeway (so 70 mph) on dry day; 3 tickets now through mail; mobile police van camera got me. Avon and Somerset police force
a) 1 ticket at 89mph going west at 13.02
b) 1 ticket at 81 mph going east (ie back home) at 13.56
c) 1 ticket for "driver not in position to have proper control" at 13.03; I don't know what this is for but the picture (on the police website for item a above) looks like I am on phone but I always have my phone in a holder and you can see my phone on the dashboard. My phone records show I wasn't on the phone at 13.03

All tickets above offer a training course.

Questions
Would I be eligible for a training course (I have never taken a course) even if I have points (esp for the 81mph one)?
Could I argue (in court) it's the same journey for the 2 speeding tickets (understand there is a rule about limiting tickets for one journey) so limiting to one.
Should I challenge in court the "not in proper control" one? How do I get more information on the offence?
If I get banned, how long is it typically for and what's the typical insurance premium hike?

Thanks in advance

[bigandclever]

15 years lurking is surely a PH record.

[paintman]

aleadie said:

In a bit of trouble here. Would welcome some advice
I already have 3 points for speeding but wasn't given option of speed awareness course

Was heading down dual carraigeway (so 70 mph) on dry day; 3 tickets now through mail; mobile police van camera got me. Avon and Somerset police force
a) 1 ticket at 89mph going west at 13.02
b) 1 ticket at 81 mph going east (ie back home) at 13.56
c) 1 ticket for "driver not in position to have proper control" at 13.03; I don't know what this is for but the picture (on the police website for item a above) looks like I am on phone but I always have my phone in a holder and you can see my phone on the dashboard. My phone records show I wasn't on the phone at 13.03

All tickets above offer a training course.

Questions
Would I be eligible for a training course (I have never taken a course) even if I have points (esp for the 81mph one)?
Could I argue (in court) it's the same journey for the 2 speeding tickets (understand there is a rule about limiting tickets for one journey) so limiting to one.
Should I challenge in court the "not in proper control" one? How do I get more information on the offence?
If I get banned, how long is it typically for and what's the typical insurance premium hike?

Thanks in advance

Quoted for posterity.

You might consider having a word with agtlaw if he doesn't spot this.

[RSTurboPaul]

Who's the barrister PH chap who deals with driving offences?

AGT Law?

Worth dropping them a line, perhaps.


EDIT: Either the last post was edited or I'm blind and had a reading fail lol

Edited by RSTurboPaul on Thursday 7th October 13:18

[CharlesElliott]

c) is for when they don't believe you are in control, e.g. eating something. Or using a phone for something other than making a phone call.

https://www.grayandcosolicitors.co.uk/not-proper-c...

[speedking31]

You may be eligible for a training course depending on region, e.g. not Scotland. The previous points do not preclude that. You might even be eligible for a speed course and a phone course.

It won't be classed as a single journey. That is more if you unobservantly pass two consecutive cameras on a motorway with reduced limits for example.

[Canon_Fodder]

I don't think the fact that it was dry day will make much difference!

I think you're in trouble OP and may need to challenge that 'in control' if you are to avoid a possible ban. I think non-internet legal advice may be required.

[Derek Smith]

You might not be in line for a ban under totting up. The case law is not that obscure but it might be worthwhile getting a brief to put this to the court.

Put simply and not in legalise, the theory is that you need to be aware that a ban is imminent. Mind you, some courts don't see themselves as bound by such decisions of higher courts, so some form of legal rep can help.

[Terminator X]

Damn, more popcorn needed for this one!

TX.

[anonymous-user]

I think you should argue that the first two tickets are in fact one ticket as you never dropped below 70 mph

[djohnson]

I’m certainly not expert enough to offer a view on this, however as others have said, if AGT doesn’t respond to this thread I’d seek him out for a discussion.

[Canon_Fodder]

aleadie said:

I
a) 1 ticket at 89mph going west at 13.02
b) 1 ticket at 81 mph going east (ie back home) at 13.56

Could I argue (in court) it's the same journey for the 2 speeding tickets (understand there is a rule about limiting tickets for one journey) so limiting to one.

I'm pretty confident that it's a flat out 'No' to that particular question

[Ryyy]

My mate got caught multiple times speeding in his first year and got a fine that was around £300 iirc and a 17 day ban but im sure the solicitor got that down in court as the old he needs his licence to work will have been played.

[RyanOPlasty]

You fool, you should have ripped the top of a bus instead, only £80and 5 points.

[Willhire89]

I think you'll end up with three more points assuming a car not van and it was classed a dual carriageway

a - the 3 points
b - speed course (since you've not had one in the last three years and below 86)
c - some other course although this could be wrong as I'm not clear on the PCN's detail and it could be nothing at all if you can prove not touching phone

Edited by Willhire89 on Thursday 7th October 15:56

[aleadie]

Thanks all for comments
I'd agree I need some experienced legal advice. AGT Law seems to be the one to speak to.
I'll update as and when

[carreauchompeur]

OK,

Basically I assume you’ve received three ‘conditional offers’ so effectively, pay the £100/each and 3 points, or it has to be heard by a Court on a not guilty plea. Not sure if any will be course eligible.

The speeding you have no chance to argue as a ‘continued’ offence.

You’ll have received a ‘not in proper control’ since the safety camera operator saw you, allegedly, on the phone… case law requires an interactive communication, and they can’t prove that, so this is the next step down. There aren’t courses offered for this offence. 3 pointer.

You can take the latter to Court on a NG plea, although be aware that the video may show your actions more clearly…

[anonymous-user]

Taken from a random website...

What would amount to not being in proper control?

Drinking something whilst at the wheel. Maybe a soft drink, coffee, tea etc.
Eating at the wheel. Maybe sweets, crisps or a banana etc.
Putting on that last minute makeup you didn’t have time to do at home before you left.
Map reading – this could be from a paper map or on an electronic satellite navigation system.
Using a mobile phone other than for making or receiving calls. Maybe looking at the satellite navigation system or choosing your favourite music to play whilst driving.

[aleadie]

sugerbear said:

Taken from a random website...

What would amount to not being in proper control?

Drinking something whilst at the wheel. Maybe a soft drink, coffee, tea etc.
Eating at the wheel. Maybe sweets, crisps or a banana etc.
Putting on that last minute makeup you didn’t have time to do at home before you left.
Map reading – this could be from a paper map or on an electronic satellite navigation system.
Using a mobile phone other than for making or receiving calls. Maybe looking at the satellite navigation system or choosing your favourite music to play whilst driving.

Thanks
How can choosing music on a phone be different to changing a radio station on the fitted radio?
It's rather unfair that they dont tell you what the actual offence is but you need to go to court to find out.

[carreauchompeur]

I’m going to be controversial here and suggest that you probably were om your phone.