Sex discrimination in insurance underwriting
Discussion
I recently acquired another mid-life crisis - Aston V8 Vantage. I wanted to insure my two sons on it, simply so that they can enjoy an occasional drive. Both son's are in their 30s and have been driving for 12+ years. Both sons have had significant no-fault accidents in the last 12 months.
I also thought it worth adding my wife to the policy - she's been driving for about 25 years with no accidents or convictions.
However, the broker asked whether my wife had "any experience of driving high-powered rear wheel drive cars". She doesn't, but she's had a couple of 200+ bhp SUVs. TBH, the 4.3 Vantage isn't massively powerful, but I dare say it can get a bit lively in certain conditions compared with a slush-box XC60....
Having told the broker that she didn't have experience, they declined to cover her.
I'm not going to kick off about it, as the premium is already stupidly low, but it would have been nice to let SWMBO drive every now and then (especially as I'm going to need to borrow the XC60 to go to LeMans when I next go)
I wouldn't have minded the question, but the broker didn't ask the same question of my sons, both of whom have less driving experience and more accidents.
I was under the impression that gender cannot be used in underwriting - have some companies found a way around it? Is it even legal?
I also thought it worth adding my wife to the policy - she's been driving for about 25 years with no accidents or convictions.
However, the broker asked whether my wife had "any experience of driving high-powered rear wheel drive cars". She doesn't, but she's had a couple of 200+ bhp SUVs. TBH, the 4.3 Vantage isn't massively powerful, but I dare say it can get a bit lively in certain conditions compared with a slush-box XC60....
Having told the broker that she didn't have experience, they declined to cover her.
I'm not going to kick off about it, as the premium is already stupidly low, but it would have been nice to let SWMBO drive every now and then (especially as I'm going to need to borrow the XC60 to go to LeMans when I next go)
I wouldn't have minded the question, but the broker didn't ask the same question of my sons, both of whom have less driving experience and more accidents.
I was under the impression that gender cannot be used in underwriting - have some companies found a way around it? Is it even legal?
Nigel_O said:
I wouldn't have minded the question, but the broker didn't ask the same question of my sons, both of whom have less driving experience and more accidents.
This is the key point people are missing in their responses. They are quite within their rights to ask about previous driving experience of high powered cars, but they asked about a woman's experience, but didn't ask about much younger men. Does seem to be sexist and you should be kicking off about it. The only possible defense I can see is that they have claims stats to show drivers who are in their 30s and have only been driving 12 years adapt to driving high powered cars for the first time better than drivers in their 50s who have been driving 30 years but not high powered cars. I'd be amazed if that were true, but I suppose it could be.
vaud said:
Is it a sex discrimination or an age profiling based on risk?
An older driver who has never driven RWD before may just present a too high a risk profile?
Accident rates are lowest for drivers of 35 - 55, of whichever sex, However, women have higher accident rates than men at all ages before 65, If the sons had just turned 30, they are a higher risk than those 35 and over. An older driver who has never driven RWD before may just present a too high a risk profile?
Women are a lower risk as they tend to drive more in towns and 30/40 limit areas and drive 2/3rds the distance. They have a higher number of accidents, and significantly so, but generally with a lower repair cost. Young males, for instance, are 10 times more likely to kill themselves behind the wheel than any other group.
The ECJ removed sex discrimination from the allowed list of factors that could be considered by insurance companies, at least for car driving. If you want to push it, then this appears to be as clear-cut as sex discrimination can get.
Derek Smith said:
Accident rates are lowest for drivers of 35 - 55, of whichever sex, However, women have higher accident rates than men at all ages before 65, If the sons had just turned 30, they are a higher risk than those 35 and over.
Women are a lower risk as they tend to drive more in towns and 30/40 limit areas and drive 2/3rds the distance. They have a higher number of accidents, and significantly so, but generally with a lower repair cost. Young males, for instance, are 10 times more likely to kill themselves behind the wheel than any other group.
The ECJ removed sex discrimination from the allowed list of factors that could be considered by insurance companies, at least for car driving. If you want to push it, then this appears to be as clear-cut as sex discrimination can get.
That wasn't my point,Women are a lower risk as they tend to drive more in towns and 30/40 limit areas and drive 2/3rds the distance. They have a higher number of accidents, and significantly so, but generally with a lower repair cost. Young males, for instance, are 10 times more likely to kill themselves behind the wheel than any other group.
The ECJ removed sex discrimination from the allowed list of factors that could be considered by insurance companies, at least for car driving. If you want to push it, then this appears to be as clear-cut as sex discrimination can get.
My point was about the age of the driver and lack of RWD experience.
They may accept 30 year olds of any gender with no RWD experience.
They might be making the profile based on the age of the older driver with no RWD experience, regardless of gender (it could have been the mother, brother, uncle, etc)
A driver with lots of AWD SUV experience might indeed present a higher risk when stepping into an Aston.
vaud said:
Derek Smith said:
Accident rates are lowest for drivers of 35 - 55, of whichever sex, However, women have higher accident rates than men at all ages before 65, If the sons had just turned 30, they are a higher risk than those 35 and over.
Women are a lower risk as they tend to drive more in towns and 30/40 limit areas and drive 2/3rds the distance. They have a higher number of accidents, and significantly so, but generally with a lower repair cost. Young males, for instance, are 10 times more likely to kill themselves behind the wheel than any other group.
The ECJ removed sex discrimination from the allowed list of factors that could be considered by insurance companies, at least for car driving. If you want to push it, then this appears to be as clear-cut as sex discrimination can get.
That wasn't my point,Women are a lower risk as they tend to drive more in towns and 30/40 limit areas and drive 2/3rds the distance. They have a higher number of accidents, and significantly so, but generally with a lower repair cost. Young males, for instance, are 10 times more likely to kill themselves behind the wheel than any other group.
The ECJ removed sex discrimination from the allowed list of factors that could be considered by insurance companies, at least for car driving. If you want to push it, then this appears to be as clear-cut as sex discrimination can get.
My point was about the age of the driver and lack of RWD experience.
They may accept 30 year olds of any gender with no RWD experience.
My guess it's some dinosaur chauvinistic underwriter who didn't fancy a woman, new to high performance cars, in an Aston, but had no issue with guys in their 30s with no experience.
Think I'd give them another call, and if they ask again then ask them why they are asking. There might be a valid reason, there might not be.
I've never heard of this question being asked of anyone before, and it's a bit subjective as one person's "powerful car" is another person's common or garden variety of car. Might as well ask "are you a good/safe driver?".
I've never heard of this question being asked of anyone before, and it's a bit subjective as one person's "powerful car" is another person's common or garden variety of car. Might as well ask "are you a good/safe driver?".
donkmeister said:
I've never heard of this question being asked of anyone before, and it's a bit subjective as one person's "powerful car" is another person's common or garden variety of car. Might as well ask "are you a good/safe driver?".
As a male in their 30’s I was asked exactly this question when trying to insure a moderately powered mid engines lightweight. It seemed a reasonable query given the circumstances. All this fuss over an Aston Martin V8 with a traction control system(s)?
The question ought to be whether the additional driver has a history of turning off the traction control either accidentally or on purpose.
With traction control on surely the risk is no different than any brisk motorcar.
The question ought to be whether the additional driver has a history of turning off the traction control either accidentally or on purpose.
With traction control on surely the risk is no different than any brisk motorcar.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
It's possible, as I said in my post upthread, but I'm not buying it. I don't know of a single insurance company that would have stats to show a driver in their 50s with no experience of that type of car would be a worse risk than a driver in their 30s with a similar lack of experience. They didn't even ask about the experience of the bloke in his 30s, just the female in her 50s.
My guess it's some dinosaur chauvinistic underwriter who didn't fancy a woman, new to high performance cars, in an Aston, but had no issue with guys in their 30s with no experience.
But you should know more than anyone it is all statisically driven. Maybe that insurer has had poor experience of ladies in that age group in cars of that type in that area, but less issues with younger males even if it is because there probably aren't too many 30ish blokes insured on Astons.My guess it's some dinosaur chauvinistic underwriter who didn't fancy a woman, new to high performance cars, in an Aston, but had no issue with guys in their 30s with no experience.
It doesn't seem any more sexist than ageist to me!
And these days there are no dinosaur chauvinistic underwriters anyway (sadly)! Just call-centre operatives who follow the script then computer says yes or no and nobody has any discretion.
Adrian Flux asked me the same question - for my 2l diesel, Front wheel drive x-type...
In your situation it might have been better to have been economical with the truth - it's a very vague question and impossible to prove or disprove really.
The worst question I had for insurance was being asked if I was gay!
In your situation it might have been better to have been economical with the truth - it's a very vague question and impossible to prove or disprove really.
The worst question I had for insurance was being asked if I was gay!
Motor insurance companies dont work on discrimination, they work on statistics and if the "risk" is high then they will insure according to that "risk", they have every right to not insure anyone if they feel its a high risk. So you just move on to the next company and see if they do it differently and youll find one, but they will see a different risk and will also see a much higher premium, therefore if youre happy with what youre paying stay with them, if you want your wife to drive then move companies and be prepared to dig deep into your pockets.
I had 2 quotes for my 4.2 XKR and neither asked that question for me or my wife who's on the insurance. I'm 38.
It's the most powerful car I've had (and hilarious).
It does seem very wrong in this day and age. By all means, ask the question of all drivers regardless of age when bhp goes above a certain threshold but to single out women is plain wrong.
It's the most powerful car I've had (and hilarious).
It does seem very wrong in this day and age. By all means, ask the question of all drivers regardless of age when bhp goes above a certain threshold but to single out women is plain wrong.
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