Judge being rude
Discussion
Its not my first time being involved in civil court matters, never really had any problem with previous judges, they’ve always seemed very switched on and make reasonable accommodation as I always represent myself.
I’m taking a previous employer to tribunal for unfair dismissal. All to be done over phone and video conference. Just had a one hour preliminary phone conference with the judge and the Respondent to sort out the agenda, disclosure, witness list etc.
The Judge started off on the phone whingeing that he’d never been so busy since he retired two years earlier (presumably brought back in to help out because of Covid and the backlogs etc). Went downhill from there.
I’d made limited requests for disclosure from the Respondent about specific management conversations “can’t do that, No no no”. The phone line wasn’t brilliant (I always called him Sir of course), I had to ask him to repeat himself once, which he got upset about.
He made some odd snap rulings and just came across as, frankly, biased and grumpy. I don’t think my case is too badly hurt right now but if he carries on like this in the full hearing then my case is going to take a hit.
Is there anything I can do about this, I know I can’t make complaints about his rulings, but his conduct was pretty poor.
I’m taking a previous employer to tribunal for unfair dismissal. All to be done over phone and video conference. Just had a one hour preliminary phone conference with the judge and the Respondent to sort out the agenda, disclosure, witness list etc.
The Judge started off on the phone whingeing that he’d never been so busy since he retired two years earlier (presumably brought back in to help out because of Covid and the backlogs etc). Went downhill from there.
I’d made limited requests for disclosure from the Respondent about specific management conversations “can’t do that, No no no”. The phone line wasn’t brilliant (I always called him Sir of course), I had to ask him to repeat himself once, which he got upset about.
He made some odd snap rulings and just came across as, frankly, biased and grumpy. I don’t think my case is too badly hurt right now but if he carries on like this in the full hearing then my case is going to take a hit.
Is there anything I can do about this, I know I can’t make complaints about his rulings, but his conduct was pretty poor.
LordBretSinclair said:
Have you never had a bad day ??????????
I work in an office and so the impact of my bad day on other people's lives is pretty small. I think it is fair to say others have a Job or role in society that comes with a level of responsibility and a potential impact on others meaning they surely have a duty to not let a 'bad day' impact it.A judge does not by default give the right decision but he/she gives a decision. As they are human, it is up to you to win the judge to your side. Not saying you were so but did you perhaps come across as arrogant or rude? If so you risk losing even if your case is rock solid.
Judges give decisions, not necessarily justice.
As a kid I could never understand why in the US so, so much time and energy was given to choice of court and the jury set up. But over time you realise they do this as they want a sympathetic or even openly biased to their case judge and jury.
Anyhow my point is you must learn how to deal with this judge to your benefit. Think it all through and judge (sorry..) your own performance, manners and ways of talking.
(Maybe this time your opponent beat you to it)
Judges give decisions, not necessarily justice.
As a kid I could never understand why in the US so, so much time and energy was given to choice of court and the jury set up. But over time you realise they do this as they want a sympathetic or even openly biased to their case judge and jury.
Anyhow my point is you must learn how to deal with this judge to your benefit. Think it all through and judge (sorry..) your own performance, manners and ways of talking.
(Maybe this time your opponent beat you to it)
jondude said:
A judge does not by default give the right decision but he/she gives a decision. As they are human, it is up to you to win the judge to your side. Not saying you were so but did you perhaps come across as arrogant or rude? If so you risk losing even if your case is rock solid.
Judges give decisions, not necessarily justice.
As a kid I could never understand why in the US so, so much time and energy was given to choice of court and the jury set up. But over time you realise they do this as they want a sympathetic or even openly biased to their case judge and jury.
Anyhow my point is you must learn how to deal with this judge to your benefit. Think it all through and judge (sorry..) your own performance, manners and ways of talking.
(Maybe this time your opponent beat you to it)
Yes, I realise that, but when the judge starts off grumpy before I’ve spoken a word… that’s my point. As I say, not had this problem with other judges so I’m inclined to believe it’s him rather than me. Judges give decisions, not necessarily justice.
As a kid I could never understand why in the US so, so much time and energy was given to choice of court and the jury set up. But over time you realise they do this as they want a sympathetic or even openly biased to their case judge and jury.
Anyhow my point is you must learn how to deal with this judge to your benefit. Think it all through and judge (sorry..) your own performance, manners and ways of talking.
(Maybe this time your opponent beat you to it)
Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
There's a big difference between proper judges sitting in the courts, and those more varied folk who sit on tribunals - or an Employment Tribunal, as here. People who also - by definition - occupy the bottom rungs of our judicial hierarchy.
In my experience, that reality can quite often be reflected in the errant behaviour sometimes displayed by some tribunal chairpersons, something which I personally think is wrong. Why they can - for instance - fall victim to a serious occupational disease generally known in the trade as 'Judgeitis'.
It's symptoms/causation may derive from a combination of overwork; vanity and boredom; or else from working in a shabby 'bubble'; but they sometimes also involve an undue willingness to show maverick, offensive or partisan behaviour in court, unbefitting of a judge. (I cannot of course speak about/to the OP's original claimed-experience, of which I know nothing...)
Symptoms only exacerbated by government cuts and that (relatively-new) Alice-In-Wonderland entity specifically created by government to preside over their creation of this whole sorry mess: namely HMCTS ('Her Majesty's Courts & Tribunals Service'). An organisation which, in meek pursuit of such dirty work for government, has cravenly closed some 250-300 local court centres over the last decade.See, for instance:
https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written...
We might not all be court-users, nor have experienced our access to justice denied; but as the taxpayers who pay so much for such a large-scale retreat from local justice, we should all still be feeling very upset indeed about this total mess they've created. Which, if nothing else, must also add to whatever daily stress is already being experienced by those few surviving mainstays of the local justice system (like the unfortunate chairperson described) whose errant behaviour (as alleged above) may be just another consequence of this country's decade-long flight from justice.
"Which is also why - personally - I always tried to avoid appearing in any cases which involved an employment tribunal..." (added the White Rabbit, to close it).
In my experience, that reality can quite often be reflected in the errant behaviour sometimes displayed by some tribunal chairpersons, something which I personally think is wrong. Why they can - for instance - fall victim to a serious occupational disease generally known in the trade as 'Judgeitis'.
It's symptoms/causation may derive from a combination of overwork; vanity and boredom; or else from working in a shabby 'bubble'; but they sometimes also involve an undue willingness to show maverick, offensive or partisan behaviour in court, unbefitting of a judge. (I cannot of course speak about/to the OP's original claimed-experience, of which I know nothing...)
Symptoms only exacerbated by government cuts and that (relatively-new) Alice-In-Wonderland entity specifically created by government to preside over their creation of this whole sorry mess: namely HMCTS ('Her Majesty's Courts & Tribunals Service'). An organisation which, in meek pursuit of such dirty work for government, has cravenly closed some 250-300 local court centres over the last decade.See, for instance:
https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written...
We might not all be court-users, nor have experienced our access to justice denied; but as the taxpayers who pay so much for such a large-scale retreat from local justice, we should all still be feeling very upset indeed about this total mess they've created. Which, if nothing else, must also add to whatever daily stress is already being experienced by those few surviving mainstays of the local justice system (like the unfortunate chairperson described) whose errant behaviour (as alleged above) may be just another consequence of this country's decade-long flight from justice.
"Which is also why - personally - I always tried to avoid appearing in any cases which involved an employment tribunal..." (added the White Rabbit, to close it).
Largechris said:
Yes, I realise that, but when the judge starts off grumpy before I’ve spoken a word… that’s my point. As I say, not had this problem with other judges so I’m inclined to believe it’s him rather than me.
Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
I've not met every judge. Far from it. However the few judges I have met have three things in common:Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
1) an interest in a fair outcome
2) a massive disdain for arrogance
3) a superhuman ability to spot BS.
So... Have a really self-critical think about if you did anything that to a third party could come under 2 or 3, either in any paperwork you submitted or anything you said.
You know what your employers did because you were there, but he wasn't. The important thing is to be factual and if in doubt, explain why things are a big deal. If he thinks you're taking something minor but construing it as something major then that's going to rub him up the wrong way before you even see him.
donkmeister said:
Largechris said:
Yes, I realise that, but when the judge starts off grumpy before I’ve spoken a word… that’s my point. As I say, not had this problem with other judges so I’m inclined to believe it’s him rather than me.
Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
I've not met every judge. Far from it. However the few judges I have met have three things in common:Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
1) an interest in a fair outcome
2) a massive disdain for arrogance
3) a superhuman ability to spot BS.
So... Have a really self-critical think about if you did anything that to a third party could come under 2 or 3, either in any paperwork you submitted or anything you said.
You know what your employers did because you were there, but he wasn't. The important thing is to be factual and if in doubt, explain why things are a big deal. If he thinks you're taking something minor but construing it as something major then that's going to rub him up the wrong way before you even see him.
Largechris said:
Yes, I realise that, but when the judge starts off grumpy before I’ve spoken a word… that’s my point. As I say, not had this problem with other judges so I’m inclined to believe it’s him rather than me.
Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
There is a time limit about making a complaint about a judges case conduct.Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
Are you going to appeal the decision to deny you the disclosure you requested?
hyphen said:
Largechris said:
Yes, I realise that, but when the judge starts off grumpy before I’ve spoken a word… that’s my point. As I say, not had this problem with other judges so I’m inclined to believe it’s him rather than me.
Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
There is a time limit about making a complaint about a judges case conduct.Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
Are you going to appeal the decision to deny you the disclosure you requested?
donkmeister said:
Largechris said:
Yes, I realise that, but when the judge starts off grumpy before I’ve spoken a word… that’s my point. As I say, not had this problem with other judges so I’m inclined to believe it’s him rather than me.
Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
I've not met every judge. Far from it. However the few judges I have met have three things in common:Is there anything practical I can do about it, can I request a change of judge etc.
1) an interest in a fair outcome
2) a massive disdain for arrogance
3) a superhuman ability to spot BS.
So... Have a really self-critical think about if you did anything that to a third party could come under 2 or 3, either in any paperwork you submitted or anything you said.
You know what your employers did because you were there, but he wasn't. The important thing is to be factual and if in doubt, explain why things are a big deal. If he thinks you're taking something minor but construing it as something major then that's going to rub him up the wrong way before you even see him.
Largechris said:
Just had a one hour preliminary phone conference with the judge and the Respondent to sort out the agenda, disclosure, witness list etc.
That's a l-o-n-g phone call.Largechris said:
I’d made limited requests for disclosure from the Respondent about specific management conversations...
What sort of things were to trying to have disclosed? Tribunal hearings generally focus on proper procedure, what was actually said/communicated to you and anything significant from other witnesses. Sounds as though you may have been attempting a "fishing expedition", which wouldn't be permitted.Panamax said:
Largechris said:
Just had a one hour preliminary phone conference with the judge and the Respondent to sort out the agenda, disclosure, witness list etc.
That's a l-o-n-g phone call.Largechris said:
I’d made limited requests for disclosure from the Respondent about specific management conversations...
What sort of things were to trying to have disclosed? Tribunal hearings generally focus on proper procedure, what was actually said/communicated to you and anything significant from other witnesses. Sounds as though you may have been attempting a "fishing expedition", which wouldn't be permitted.Largechris said:
Its not my first time being involved in civil court matters, never really had any problem with previous judges, they’ve always seemed very switched on and make reasonable accommodation as I always represent myself.
I’m taking a previous employer to tribunal for unfair dismissal. All to be done over phone and video conference. Just had a one hour preliminary phone conference with the judge and the Respondent to sort out the agenda, disclosure, witness list etc.
The Judge started off on the phone whingeing that he’d never been so busy since he retired two years earlier (presumably brought back in to help out because of Covid and the backlogs etc). Went downhill from there.
I’d made limited requests for disclosure from the Respondent about specific management conversations “can’t do that, No no no”. The phone line wasn’t brilliant (I always called him Sir of course), I had to ask him to repeat himself once, which he got upset about.
He made some odd snap rulings and just came across as, frankly, biased and grumpy. I don’t think my case is too badly hurt right now but if he carries on like this in the full hearing then my case is going to take a hit.
Is there anything I can do about this, I know I can’t make complaints about his rulings, but his conduct was pretty poor.
How did the allegation of rudeness actually manifest itself?I’m taking a previous employer to tribunal for unfair dismissal. All to be done over phone and video conference. Just had a one hour preliminary phone conference with the judge and the Respondent to sort out the agenda, disclosure, witness list etc.
The Judge started off on the phone whingeing that he’d never been so busy since he retired two years earlier (presumably brought back in to help out because of Covid and the backlogs etc). Went downhill from there.
I’d made limited requests for disclosure from the Respondent about specific management conversations “can’t do that, No no no”. The phone line wasn’t brilliant (I always called him Sir of course), I had to ask him to repeat himself once, which he got upset about.
He made some odd snap rulings and just came across as, frankly, biased and grumpy. I don’t think my case is too badly hurt right now but if he carries on like this in the full hearing then my case is going to take a hit.
Is there anything I can do about this, I know I can’t make complaints about his rulings, but his conduct was pretty poor.
Did he say e.g. "you are stupid"?
The Mad Monk said:
Largechris said:
Its not my first time being involved in civil court matters, never really had any problem with previous judges, they’ve always seemed very switched on and make reasonable accommodation as I always represent myself.
I’m taking a previous employer to tribunal for unfair dismissal. All to be done over phone and video conference. Just had a one hour preliminary phone conference with the judge and the Respondent to sort out the agenda, disclosure, witness list etc.
The Judge started off on the phone whingeing that he’d never been so busy since he retired two years earlier (presumably brought back in to help out because of Covid and the backlogs etc). Went downhill from there.
I’d made limited requests for disclosure from the Respondent about specific management conversations “can’t do that, No no no”. The phone line wasn’t brilliant (I always called him Sir of course), I had to ask him to repeat himself once, which he got upset about.
He made some odd snap rulings and just came across as, frankly, biased and grumpy. I don’t think my case is too badly hurt right now but if he carries on like this in the full hearing then my case is going to take a hit.
Is there anything I can do about this, I know I can’t make complaints about his rulings, but his conduct was pretty poor.
How did the allegation of rudeness actually manifest itself?I’m taking a previous employer to tribunal for unfair dismissal. All to be done over phone and video conference. Just had a one hour preliminary phone conference with the judge and the Respondent to sort out the agenda, disclosure, witness list etc.
The Judge started off on the phone whingeing that he’d never been so busy since he retired two years earlier (presumably brought back in to help out because of Covid and the backlogs etc). Went downhill from there.
I’d made limited requests for disclosure from the Respondent about specific management conversations “can’t do that, No no no”. The phone line wasn’t brilliant (I always called him Sir of course), I had to ask him to repeat himself once, which he got upset about.
He made some odd snap rulings and just came across as, frankly, biased and grumpy. I don’t think my case is too badly hurt right now but if he carries on like this in the full hearing then my case is going to take a hit.
Is there anything I can do about this, I know I can’t make complaints about his rulings, but his conduct was pretty poor.
Did he say e.g. "you are stupid"?
As in….”no no no” when one “no” would have sufficed
As in….refusing to clarify the title of a document he was referring to
I had a civil dispute over building work - the whole process took forever and we must have had hearings with 6 or 7 different Judges - the trial judge even overruled some of the decisions made by the previous Judges
A couple of them were grumpy f
ks who I thought made silly decisions - luckily some were overruled.
A couple of them were grumpy f
ks who I thought made silly decisions - luckily some were overruled.
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