Accident, other party playing silly buggers
Discussion
6 weeks ago I had an accident in my LS400 on a country road. It's fairly narrow but has a central white line, I've passed a bin lorry going the other way in the past no dramas.
The accident.
On this occasion I came round a slight bend, 40mph, a car and a transit coming towards me. The car starts drifting over towards me so I steer left, all the way to the left verge, and it passes ok. The Transit, however, keeps moving over - well onto my side of the road - and I steer even further left to avoid.
The Transit hits a glancing blow on my drivers door, running all the way to the back of the car. So from the damage on my car, you can see I was pointing left otherwise it would have hit the front indicator (steering out of the way as far as I was able - there were trees in the verge so couldn't just take to the grass, and it all happened inside 2 seconds).
Transit lost its front tyre, dented the steel rim, panel damage to the front offside wing and arch trim, and outer edge of bumper. If it hadn't lost its tyre it would have been driveable.
I was pushed into a slide, which I caught, but by that time the car was heading into the verge on the right, where it bounced up and onto the verge, suffered some underside damage, and is thoroughly written off.
Driver had no idea what had happened, said he wasn't on his works phone (meaning I suspected he was on his personal one) and admitted liability, gave me his fleet manager's name and number, his own name, kept apologising profusely, took my number, and at that I headed off home (no phone signal, and it was 10 minutes walk from home) to arrange recovery via my insurer.
The Transit had a dashcam wired into the ignition, which the driver showed me and which I verified was switched on and looked like it was recording (not the type with a screen showing what it's recording, sadly).
On the road is a score mark from the steel wheel of the Transit, starting 50cm over on my side of the road and gently veering back to the left where the van ended up parked next to the verge. I've got a photo of the scrape, which was on a dry surface, but it wasn't deep as it's no longer visible on the road.
The insurance situation.
At the time, the only way I could get the car recovered was to claim through my insurance. No problem that's what they're there for. They think it's 100% the other drivers fault and will chase it on my behalf.
A fortnight after, after chasing my insurer (oh, yes!) they advise that the other party's insurer hasn't contacted them. Warning bells starting to ring. Insurer advises they will let me know as soon as there is any progress on my case, by text. I have received other texts about the accident but none with status updates.
A month later, my claim is settled so my car's written off and I've covered the cost of buying the car a couple of months previously - but minus my excess of £450 which I can only get back if it's settled in my favour. My renewal is due soon which will cost me another £100 which presumably I can claim back if settled in my favour later.
A few more calls to my insurer over the next several days which tell me that call handlers can't access my case, and I need to speak to the claim handler, they take my number, but I never get a call back.
On Monday, as I've still heard nothing, I ask to be transferred directly to the claim handler. I'm advised that the other insurer has said it's 50/50 as it's "a narrow lane with no centre markings". I run through the circs with a claims handler, who eventually manages to understand that a) it's not a narrow road, b) it does have a centre line, c) my pics clearly show it's wide enough for a transit to stay on its own side of the road, and d) the scrape mark from the transit wheel clearly shows how far over on my side it was.
Today, still no reply from the other insurer and from speaking to the claim handler, I have little confidence that they are pushing it, or care.
The driver was insistent that the dash cams are all permanently recording while the ignition is on, so the footage will show what happened. I didn't have a dash cam (I've put one in my new car...) but while I appreciate it's hardly slam dunk evidence, if that footage showed it was 50/50 they'd have shared it with their insurer.
So:
- if an insurer received footage or evidence strongly indicating liability, they'd admit it and settle - wouldn't they? they wouldn't "lose" the footage and keep fighting the case against the other insurer - would they?
- if I have little confidence that my insurer is going to make a good fist of pushing the case so it's their fault, is there anything I can do to help / escalate / request a new claim handler?
- I still have the company fleet manager's name and number - the company is very local - is it wise or less than wise to contact him direct?
I appreciate the insurance co is supposed to represent me here, but they're going through the other insurer and my feeling is the fleet manager is playing games with no regard to who's at fault, safe behind his insurance company.
I'm tempted to doorstep the company and go talk to him face to face, to understand his position, ask where the footage is etc - can I reasonably do this? I do feel I've got reasonable cause to, and was given his name by the driver so haven't stalked it off the internet. My insurer has shown no interest in talking to the fleet controller, not least to ask where TF the dash cam footage is. Do they only deal with the insurer or do they contact the driver / fleet manager / whoever directly in some circumstances?
Thanks for any pointers from anyone on the inside of car insurance who can advise from a position of experience...
The accident.
On this occasion I came round a slight bend, 40mph, a car and a transit coming towards me. The car starts drifting over towards me so I steer left, all the way to the left verge, and it passes ok. The Transit, however, keeps moving over - well onto my side of the road - and I steer even further left to avoid.
The Transit hits a glancing blow on my drivers door, running all the way to the back of the car. So from the damage on my car, you can see I was pointing left otherwise it would have hit the front indicator (steering out of the way as far as I was able - there were trees in the verge so couldn't just take to the grass, and it all happened inside 2 seconds).
Transit lost its front tyre, dented the steel rim, panel damage to the front offside wing and arch trim, and outer edge of bumper. If it hadn't lost its tyre it would have been driveable.
I was pushed into a slide, which I caught, but by that time the car was heading into the verge on the right, where it bounced up and onto the verge, suffered some underside damage, and is thoroughly written off.
Driver had no idea what had happened, said he wasn't on his works phone (meaning I suspected he was on his personal one) and admitted liability, gave me his fleet manager's name and number, his own name, kept apologising profusely, took my number, and at that I headed off home (no phone signal, and it was 10 minutes walk from home) to arrange recovery via my insurer.
The Transit had a dashcam wired into the ignition, which the driver showed me and which I verified was switched on and looked like it was recording (not the type with a screen showing what it's recording, sadly).
On the road is a score mark from the steel wheel of the Transit, starting 50cm over on my side of the road and gently veering back to the left where the van ended up parked next to the verge. I've got a photo of the scrape, which was on a dry surface, but it wasn't deep as it's no longer visible on the road.
The insurance situation.
At the time, the only way I could get the car recovered was to claim through my insurance. No problem that's what they're there for. They think it's 100% the other drivers fault and will chase it on my behalf.
A fortnight after, after chasing my insurer (oh, yes!) they advise that the other party's insurer hasn't contacted them. Warning bells starting to ring. Insurer advises they will let me know as soon as there is any progress on my case, by text. I have received other texts about the accident but none with status updates.
A month later, my claim is settled so my car's written off and I've covered the cost of buying the car a couple of months previously - but minus my excess of £450 which I can only get back if it's settled in my favour. My renewal is due soon which will cost me another £100 which presumably I can claim back if settled in my favour later.
A few more calls to my insurer over the next several days which tell me that call handlers can't access my case, and I need to speak to the claim handler, they take my number, but I never get a call back.
On Monday, as I've still heard nothing, I ask to be transferred directly to the claim handler. I'm advised that the other insurer has said it's 50/50 as it's "a narrow lane with no centre markings". I run through the circs with a claims handler, who eventually manages to understand that a) it's not a narrow road, b) it does have a centre line, c) my pics clearly show it's wide enough for a transit to stay on its own side of the road, and d) the scrape mark from the transit wheel clearly shows how far over on my side it was.
Today, still no reply from the other insurer and from speaking to the claim handler, I have little confidence that they are pushing it, or care.
The driver was insistent that the dash cams are all permanently recording while the ignition is on, so the footage will show what happened. I didn't have a dash cam (I've put one in my new car...) but while I appreciate it's hardly slam dunk evidence, if that footage showed it was 50/50 they'd have shared it with their insurer.
So:
- if an insurer received footage or evidence strongly indicating liability, they'd admit it and settle - wouldn't they? they wouldn't "lose" the footage and keep fighting the case against the other insurer - would they?
- if I have little confidence that my insurer is going to make a good fist of pushing the case so it's their fault, is there anything I can do to help / escalate / request a new claim handler?
- I still have the company fleet manager's name and number - the company is very local - is it wise or less than wise to contact him direct?
I appreciate the insurance co is supposed to represent me here, but they're going through the other insurer and my feeling is the fleet manager is playing games with no regard to who's at fault, safe behind his insurance company.
I'm tempted to doorstep the company and go talk to him face to face, to understand his position, ask where the footage is etc - can I reasonably do this? I do feel I've got reasonable cause to, and was given his name by the driver so haven't stalked it off the internet. My insurer has shown no interest in talking to the fleet controller, not least to ask where TF the dash cam footage is. Do they only deal with the insurer or do they contact the driver / fleet manager / whoever directly in some circumstances?
Thanks for any pointers from anyone on the inside of car insurance who can advise from a position of experience...
Edited by FNG on Friday 25th February 14:05
FNG said:
- if an insurer received footage or evidence strongly indicating liability, they'd admit it and settle - wouldn't they? they wouldn't "lose" the footage and keep fighting the case against the other insurer - would they?
Our daughter’s car was rear-ended by an Argos van in front of police attending the accident on the other side of the road that the van driver was rubber necking. Their insurer didn’t respond to ours until they started legal proceedings. No issue with excess though – our insurer waived it.I guess in your case it’s contentious – you say “my side of the road” but I always understood it’s just a road, the ‘sides’ thing is irrelevant. Best thing to do if not sure is stop – if a moving vehicle hits yours then it’s their fault – but there might still be an argument over whether you were really stopped.
Have you go legal cover on your policy? They should pursue it, but will only do so if they think there’s a good chance of success. Maybe, if you haven’t already, you should go through your insurers complaints process.
Same as above, mother and (mercifully ex) partner had a claim ongoing for nearly 3 years while the other insurer tried their best to wriggle out of it, even going as far as to question the time of the incident because a bus went past with headlights on. It was eventually settled correctly and not a 50/50 but it was very close to court action. I think the other insurer just took it as far as they could before court in hopes that a 50/50 settlement would be agreed then bailed out at the last minute knowing that they'd stand no chance in court.
Keep on at them. I don't know any legalities with you contacting the fleet manager but speak to your insurer, they will know better than I. Try to keep contact recorded too, emails and such. Always a paper trail and no case of "I never said that".
Keep on at them. I don't know any legalities with you contacting the fleet manager but speak to your insurer, they will know better than I. Try to keep contact recorded too, emails and such. Always a paper trail and no case of "I never said that".
RazerSauber said:
Same as above, mother and (mercifully ex) partner had a claim ongoing for nearly 3 years while the other insurer tried their best to wriggle out of it, even going as far as to question the time of the incident because a bus went past with headlights on. It was eventually settled correctly and not a 50/50 but it was very close to court action. I think the other insurer just took it as far as they could before court in hopes that a 50/50 settlement would be agreed then bailed out at the last minute knowing that they'd stand no chance in court.
Keep on at them. I don't know any legalities with you contacting the fleet manager but speak to your insurer, they will know better than I. Try to keep contact recorded too, emails and such. Always a paper trail and no case of "I never said that".
This I think ^^^^^^^^^Keep on at them. I don't know any legalities with you contacting the fleet manager but speak to your insurer, they will know better than I. Try to keep contact recorded too, emails and such. Always a paper trail and no case of "I never said that".
You're paying your insurer to chase, not for you to have to go round and doorstep the other driver's company. Keep chasing, be a pain, raise complaints, insurance ombudsman etc. etc.
Largechris said:
RazerSauber said:
Same as above, mother and (mercifully ex) partner had a claim ongoing for nearly 3 years while the other insurer tried their best to wriggle out of it, even going as far as to question the time of the incident because a bus went past with headlights on. It was eventually settled correctly and not a 50/50 but it was very close to court action. I think the other insurer just took it as far as they could before court in hopes that a 50/50 settlement would be agreed then bailed out at the last minute knowing that they'd stand no chance in court.
Keep on at them. I don't know any legalities with you contacting the fleet manager but speak to your insurer, they will know better than I. Try to keep contact recorded too, emails and such. Always a paper trail and no case of "I never said that".
This I think ^^^^^^^^^Keep on at them. I don't know any legalities with you contacting the fleet manager but speak to your insurer, they will know better than I. Try to keep contact recorded too, emails and such. Always a paper trail and no case of "I never said that".
You're paying your insurer to chase, not for you to have to go round and doorstep the other driver's company. Keep chasing, be a pain, raise complaints, insurance ombudsman etc. etc.
t up. He's remote from it. Far as I can see, all he has to gain is keeping his company's fleet insurance cost down. I just felt that having to look straight at the bloke who's hundreds of quid out of pocket because he's doing that might persuade him that he's out of order.Re chasing insurer. I've decided to designate Tuesdays as Chase The Bulldog day. I really don't like being a pest but getting the strongest feeling that if I don't, it'll get settled 50/50 and that galls me just as much as I need £550 quid in my bank, not in an insurer's.
Trust me there's nothing more I could have done to avoid this incident. From Transit fully on his side of the road (as in, on the other side of the white line) to hitting my door took about 2 seconds. Braking to a stop wasn't an option, I was already braking as hard as possible. Moving further left wasn't an option, I was doing that already too and still got hit. The driver admitted it.
So taking it on the chin because some fleet admin wants to save his boss a few quid and is prepared to lose the footage and tell lies to the insurer doesn't sit well with me at all.
Actually, wonder if an email to the company owner might help...
Sheepshanks said:
FNG said:
- if an insurer received footage or evidence strongly indicating liability, they'd admit it and settle - wouldn't they? they wouldn't "lose" the footage and keep fighting the case against the other insurer - would they?
Our daughter’s car was rear-ended by an Argos van in front of police attending the accident on the other side of the road that the van driver was rubber necking. Their insurer didn’t respond to ours until they started legal proceedings. No issue with excess though – our insurer waived it.I guess in your case it’s contentious – you say “my side of the road” but I always understood it’s just a road, the ‘sides’ thing is irrelevant. Best thing to do if not sure is stop – if a moving vehicle hits yours then it’s their fault – but there might still be an argument over whether you were really stopped.
Have you go legal cover on your policy? They should pursue it, but will only do so if they think there’s a good chance of success. Maybe, if you haven’t already, you should go through your insurers complaints process.
I've got legal protection so that's a possibility, but let's see where the insurer gets to by pushing back on the "narrow lane, no centre line" b
ks first. Ombudsman if necessary. It's good I have the legal option if it comes to that I guess.FNG said:
Unsure about your point re sides of the road, but basically there is a central white line, there's room enough for his van to stay wholly on the other side of that line, he didn't, his wing will have been about 2ft over the line on my side, I couldn't get any further left without completely losing control near sturdy trees, he hit me while I was trying to avoid him even though he was well into my lane.
I don't think it's a slam-dunk just because he crossed the line.FNG said:
Ombudsman if necessary.
I think you have to go through the insurers complaints process first.Sheepshanks said:
FNG said:
- if an insurer received footage or evidence strongly indicating liability, they'd admit it and settle - wouldn't they? they wouldn't "lose" the footage and keep fighting the case against the other insurer - would they?
Our daughter’s car was rear-ended by an Argos van in front of police attending the accident on the other side of the road that the van driver was rubber necking. Their insurer didn’t respond to ours until they started legal proceedings. No issue with excess though – our insurer waived it.I guess in your case it’s contentious – you say “my side of the road” but I always understood it’s just a road, the ‘sides’ thing is irrelevant. Best thing to do if not sure is stop – if a moving vehicle hits yours then it’s their fault – but there might still be an argument over whether you were really stopped.
Have you go legal cover on your policy? They should pursue it, but will only do so if they think there’s a good chance of success. Maybe, if you haven’t already, you should go through your insurers complaints process.
He of course pulled the Shaggy Defence. We then sent his insurer the footage in MPEG format which they claimed they could not play on their computers(?!?!) so we had to send it in a different format which they also claimed they could not play. So my insurer sent them about a dozen stills from the video, to which their response was "the photos show a flat-bed truck but our client drives a panel van". I appreciate this sounds made up, it was ludicrous.
They coughed up immediately when we instigated court proceedings.
Had a similar situation 8 years ago in Cheddar Somerset - builder’s Transit came through light controlled roadworks on a red, while I was coming through and hit the side of my Honda - he kept driving - it was 7pm and dark, but my daughter got the business name and a partial reg. I turned round and headed in the same direction as the Transit, believing that he would stop somewhere close to look at his own damage. We found him hiding in the entrance of a closed garden centre. He was standing next to the van swinging a large lump of wood. I believe he was severely “in drink” so “strategically retreated” reported it to the police who were not interested, as no-one was hurt.
Reported to my insurance, they told me the other party denied even being there. It took two and a half years to get it settled in my favour, and it all came down to an unusual blue colour paint that was on my door mirror that came from the sign writing. My insurers, Hastings Direct were brilliant in not giving up, and the legal cover I believe was used in pursuing the building company to get the driver to admit liability.
Now have a dashcam in everything - it was also nice to finally get my £250 excess returned
Reported to my insurance, they told me the other party denied even being there. It took two and a half years to get it settled in my favour, and it all came down to an unusual blue colour paint that was on my door mirror that came from the sign writing. My insurers, Hastings Direct were brilliant in not giving up, and the legal cover I believe was used in pursuing the building company to get the driver to admit liability.
Now have a dashcam in everything - it was also nice to finally get my £250 excess returned
vitesse2000 said:
Speaking to the friends who live in the area, that’s a typical response from Avon and Somerset constabulary - maybe I should have reported being offended on twitter…
Next door neighbours brother is a police accident investigator and he said if you get in an accident and feel you need the police there then call an ambulance - they call the police who will respond in numbers and at pace.Insurer playing silly buggers too now.
Last 3 times I've called them, I've waited to get hold of a claim handler rather than a call handler so I can talk directly about the case.
Every time they've said that they'll just wait for the other insurer to respond. No intention of a chasing email as "it won't make them respond any quicker".
I dunno about anyone else's industry but where I am, persistence pays off. To which end, I won't be ceasing my calls to my insurer and leaving them to contact me if there's any updates (they've been promising this from the outset but never given me any updates so far if anything material has happened).
I am far from convinced they will escalate or chase the other side, who can therefore sit on it. Like the other party's fleet manager is doing.
Do I need to get an accident management company involved? Escalating and ongoing costs would focus minds I'm sure, but I'm reluctant as there were no witnesses (mind you I bet one could be found if needed on their side) and the dash cam footage will doubtless never surface.
Very frustrating. Went with the bulldog insurer as I thought they were fairly reputable. But really don't feel like they're pushing my case at all, and so far the claim handlers don't seem to be on the ball, nor are they compiling a response to the other insurer that holds so much water that they fold.
Happily I do have legal cover so can go that route eventually. Question is, at what point does that become the next step? How long is reasonable to wait for the other insurer to reply before escalating via the legal route? It's been a fortnight since the last reply to them, another fortnight then raise it?
Last 3 times I've called them, I've waited to get hold of a claim handler rather than a call handler so I can talk directly about the case.
Every time they've said that they'll just wait for the other insurer to respond. No intention of a chasing email as "it won't make them respond any quicker".
I dunno about anyone else's industry but where I am, persistence pays off. To which end, I won't be ceasing my calls to my insurer and leaving them to contact me if there's any updates (they've been promising this from the outset but never given me any updates so far if anything material has happened).
I am far from convinced they will escalate or chase the other side, who can therefore sit on it. Like the other party's fleet manager is doing.
Do I need to get an accident management company involved? Escalating and ongoing costs would focus minds I'm sure, but I'm reluctant as there were no witnesses (mind you I bet one could be found if needed on their side) and the dash cam footage will doubtless never surface.
Very frustrating. Went with the bulldog insurer as I thought they were fairly reputable. But really don't feel like they're pushing my case at all, and so far the claim handlers don't seem to be on the ball, nor are they compiling a response to the other insurer that holds so much water that they fold.
Happily I do have legal cover so can go that route eventually. Question is, at what point does that become the next step? How long is reasonable to wait for the other insurer to reply before escalating via the legal route? It's been a fortnight since the last reply to them, another fortnight then raise it?
FNG said:
My renewal is due soon which will cost me another £100 which presumably I can claim back if settled in my favour later.
Good luck with that. Similarly had someone come onto my side of the road and hit me last year. Insurers 100% not my fault. I asked about costs for next couple years renewals, got 5 cars in the house on 4 policies, and was told to jog on. For the effect it has had on my renewals it probably works out that I'd have been better just not going through insurance. Its st.An update!
Contrary to my admittedly low expectations, the other party's insurer has admitted liability and coughed up.
When I last called, a claim handler realised that despite there being some back and forth with the other party's insurer, at no point had my team sent any images over to the other team. No wonder they had replied "only yesterday" that they didn't accept liability
When I called today for an update, it seems - brace yourself for the coincidence - that "only yesterday" did the other party admit liability.
We will contact you with updates as soon as they happen. Yeah fking right.
Let's just say I won't be renewing with this crowd next year.
They reckon I will get my excess back in the next couple of days, and I need to contact them again tomorrow to claim my excess premium. Sigh. OK then.
So it's taken over 5 months, 4 months of which appears to be delays caused by incompetence. But I get my excesses back.
That, happily, together with the settlement figure plus sale of the JDM alloys it came on and the private plate, will just cover what I paid for the car and what I spent on a new radiator, mats and bluetooth kit.
Got to say that despite it being a slam dunk in terms of blame, it was still stressful and I was doubting myself at times and thinking I could have done more to avoid the other guy. That the other party wouldn't counter my claim if it was such a clear cut incident, would they? That it'll end up 50/50. Then every time I drive past the scene and look at the marks, I'm reminded I had no chance.
So, good news, and one that turned out ok in the end for a nice change.
Contrary to my admittedly low expectations, the other party's insurer has admitted liability and coughed up.
When I last called, a claim handler realised that despite there being some back and forth with the other party's insurer, at no point had my team sent any images over to the other team. No wonder they had replied "only yesterday" that they didn't accept liability
When I called today for an update, it seems - brace yourself for the coincidence - that "only yesterday" did the other party admit liability.
We will contact you with updates as soon as they happen. Yeah f
king right. Let's just say I won't be renewing with this crowd next year.
They reckon I will get my excess back in the next couple of days, and I need to contact them again tomorrow to claim my excess premium. Sigh. OK then.
So it's taken over 5 months, 4 months of which appears to be delays caused by incompetence. But I get my excesses back.
That, happily, together with the settlement figure plus sale of the JDM alloys it came on and the private plate, will just cover what I paid for the car and what I spent on a new radiator, mats and bluetooth kit.
Got to say that despite it being a slam dunk in terms of blame, it was still stressful and I was doubting myself at times and thinking I could have done more to avoid the other guy. That the other party wouldn't counter my claim if it was such a clear cut incident, would they? That it'll end up 50/50. Then every time I drive past the scene and look at the marks, I'm reminded I had no chance.
So, good news, and one that turned out ok in the end for a nice change.
Edited by FNG on Thursday 16th June 13:20
Sheepshanks said:
Next door neighbours brother is a police accident investigator and he said if you get in an accident and feel you need the police there then call an ambulance - they call the police who will respond in numbers and at pace.
Please don't do this unless there's genuine injury. Ambulances are in short supply over most of the country and people are dying through slow responses.Vasco said:
Sheepshanks said:
Next door neighbours brother is a police accident investigator and he said if you get in an accident and feel you need the police there then call an ambulance - they call the police who will respond in numbers and at pace.
Please don't do this unless there's genuine injury. Ambulances are in short supply over most of the country and people are dying through slow responses.If your conscious, breathing and not pissing blood out of your body it’s a cat 3 around here. Maybe a cat 2 if you are elderly or young. Cat 3s often have no ETA and are often hours (a friend is a paramedic who goes to some that are days old…).
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