Covering number plate when on private land
Discussion
Daft question, but this popped up on a local Facebook group this week.
Local car park, on private land, popular with walkers and has a small cafe, recently had parking charges and one of those ANPR parking management companies introduced. Plenty of signs but loads of locals who have been going there for years being sent “invoices” for failing to pay for parking through the app.
Nothing unusual so far - but on the local FB group, people have been trying to start a campaign for those using the carpark to cover their number plates.
Their logic: it’s private land therefore number plates not legally required. The anpr camera is not on the public highway so you could in theory stop your car, cover the plates and then drive past the camera. Then the reverse on the way out.
Not interested in replies around the ethics of it, the “why would you bother?” or “just pay” comments please - really a question of whether you NEED to display your plates on private land so the landowner can photograph it.
You could still pay for your parking of course.
I had never really though of this - and it seems daft to me, but just got me wondering whether the police would take a dim view or not.
Many thanks !
Local car park, on private land, popular with walkers and has a small cafe, recently had parking charges and one of those ANPR parking management companies introduced. Plenty of signs but loads of locals who have been going there for years being sent “invoices” for failing to pay for parking through the app.
Nothing unusual so far - but on the local FB group, people have been trying to start a campaign for those using the carpark to cover their number plates.
Their logic: it’s private land therefore number plates not legally required. The anpr camera is not on the public highway so you could in theory stop your car, cover the plates and then drive past the camera. Then the reverse on the way out.
Not interested in replies around the ethics of it, the “why would you bother?” or “just pay” comments please - really a question of whether you NEED to display your plates on private land so the landowner can photograph it.
You could still pay for your parking of course.
I had never really though of this - and it seems daft to me, but just got me wondering whether the police would take a dim view or not.
Many thanks !
^^^^ Same as the above.
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary... says:
"Road" or "Other Public Place"
"Road" is defined at s.142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as any length of highway or other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines 'road' as a line of communication for use of foot passengers and vehicles; while in Oxford v Austin [1981] RTR 416 it was said to be a definable right of way between two points.
The expression 'on a road or other public place' is employed frequently in road traffic legislation. A public place is a place to which the public, or part thereof, have access. See also DPP v Vivier [1991] Crim LR 637, DPP v Neville [1996] 160 JP 758 and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance Co. Ltd, Clarke v Kato and Others [1998] 4 All ER 417. Insurance cover is required for the use of a vehicle on a road or a public place.
The onus is on the prosecution to establish that a particular location is a "road" or a "public place".
Bit more that might be worth a read of various cases here:
https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2019/03/11/road-...
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary... says:
"Road" or "Other Public Place"
"Road" is defined at s.142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as any length of highway or other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines 'road' as a line of communication for use of foot passengers and vehicles; while in Oxford v Austin [1981] RTR 416 it was said to be a definable right of way between two points.
The expression 'on a road or other public place' is employed frequently in road traffic legislation. A public place is a place to which the public, or part thereof, have access. See also DPP v Vivier [1991] Crim LR 637, DPP v Neville [1996] 160 JP 758 and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance Co. Ltd, Clarke v Kato and Others [1998] 4 All ER 417. Insurance cover is required for the use of a vehicle on a road or a public place.
The onus is on the prosecution to establish that a particular location is a "road" or a "public place".
Bit more that might be worth a read of various cases here:
https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2019/03/11/road-...
paintman said:
^^^^ Same as the above.
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary... says:
"Road" or "Other Public Place"
"Road" is defined at s.142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as any length of highway or other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines 'road' as a line of communication for use of foot passengers and vehicles; while in Oxford v Austin [1981] RTR 416 it was said to be a definable right of way between two points.
The expression 'on a road or other public place' is employed frequently in road traffic legislation. A public place is a place to which the public, or part thereof, have access. See also DPP v Vivier [1991] Crim LR 637, DPP v Neville [1996] 160 JP 758 and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance Co. Ltd, Clarke v Kato and Others [1998] 4 All ER 417. Insurance cover is required for the use of a vehicle on a road or a public place.
The onus is on the prosecution to establish that a particular location is a "road" or a "public place".
Bit more that might be worth a read of various cases here:
https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2019/03/11/road-...
Thank you for the very clear reply - this makes perfect sense. I now have the ammunition I needed to try and persuade them to not make things worse. Thanks again ! www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary... says:
"Road" or "Other Public Place"
"Road" is defined at s.142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as any length of highway or other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines 'road' as a line of communication for use of foot passengers and vehicles; while in Oxford v Austin [1981] RTR 416 it was said to be a definable right of way between two points.
The expression 'on a road or other public place' is employed frequently in road traffic legislation. A public place is a place to which the public, or part thereof, have access. See also DPP v Vivier [1991] Crim LR 637, DPP v Neville [1996] 160 JP 758 and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance Co. Ltd, Clarke v Kato and Others [1998] 4 All ER 417. Insurance cover is required for the use of a vehicle on a road or a public place.
The onus is on the prosecution to establish that a particular location is a "road" or a "public place".
Bit more that might be worth a read of various cases here:
https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2019/03/11/road-...
Try this:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/body/...
Section 11
2) A registration plate must not be treated in any other way which renders the characters of the registration mark less easily distinguishable to the eye or which would prevent or impair the making of a true photographic image of the plate through the medium of camera and film or any other device.
It may be private land, but is accessible to the public.
All just my opinion. It has been brought up on many other forums.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/body/...
Section 11
2) A registration plate must not be treated in any other way which renders the characters of the registration mark less easily distinguishable to the eye or which would prevent or impair the making of a true photographic image of the plate through the medium of camera and film or any other device.
It may be private land, but is accessible to the public.
All just my opinion. It has been brought up on many other forums.
livinginasia said:
Daft question, but this popped up on a local Facebook group this week.
Local car park, on private land, popular with walkers and has a small cafe, recently had parking charges and one of those ANPR parking management companies introduced. Plenty of signs but loads of locals who have been going there for years being sent “invoices” for failing to pay for parking through the app.
Nothing unusual so far - but on the local FB group, people have been trying to start a campaign for those using the carpark to cover their number plates.
Their logic: it’s private land therefore number plates not legally required. The anpr camera is not on the public highway so you could in theory stop your car, cover the plates and then drive past the camera. Then the reverse on the way out.
Not interested in replies around the ethics of it, the “why would you bother?” or “just pay” comments please - really a question of whether you NEED to display your plates on private land so the landowner can photograph it.
You could still pay for your parking of course.
I had never really though of this - and it seems daft to me, but just got me wondering whether the police would take a dim view or not.
Many thanks !
Private car park, you use it, you enter a contract with the owner.Local car park, on private land, popular with walkers and has a small cafe, recently had parking charges and one of those ANPR parking management companies introduced. Plenty of signs but loads of locals who have been going there for years being sent “invoices” for failing to pay for parking through the app.
Nothing unusual so far - but on the local FB group, people have been trying to start a campaign for those using the carpark to cover their number plates.
Their logic: it’s private land therefore number plates not legally required. The anpr camera is not on the public highway so you could in theory stop your car, cover the plates and then drive past the camera. Then the reverse on the way out.
Not interested in replies around the ethics of it, the “why would you bother?” or “just pay” comments please - really a question of whether you NEED to display your plates on private land so the landowner can photograph it.
You could still pay for your parking of course.
I had never really though of this - and it seems daft to me, but just got me wondering whether the police would take a dim view or not.
Many thanks !
I guess the anpr machine might report a lot of 'fail to read' resulting in a swift visit from parking co man in van ?
Inciting people to break the law on facebrick might have consequences.
Durzel said:
Would be amusing if the owner of said private lands decided it wasn’t worth the hassle letting people park on it when they’re just going to take the piss anyway, and keeps the gate locked.
That was my first thought as well, then a - I suspect - small minority of people would have ruined it for everybody (a not unusual outcome throughout time) I didn’t know you had to have plates if something is publicly accessible (my simplistic view was as the Fb people - private (although in my case I wasn’t thinking about somebody else’s private land) = no plate required) - that is good to know
Evanivitch said:
The car park has public access. It's not gated, and access is not strictly controlled.
Therefore it is highway. And therefore VRN must be displayed.
It might well be a public place, but it's not a highway. A highway is a road over which the public have a RIGHT to pass and repass. If it was a highway the owner wouldn't be able to restrict or charge for access if the first place. But a piece of land doesn't become a highway just because the landowner leaves the gate open. Therefore it is highway. And therefore VRN must be displayed.
paintman said:
^^^^ Same as the above.
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary... says:
"Road" or "Other Public Place"
"Road" is defined at s.142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as any length of highway or other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines 'road' as a line of communication for use of foot passengers and vehicles; while in Oxford v Austin [1981] RTR 416 it was said to be a definable right of way between two points.
The expression 'on a road or other public place' is employed frequently in road traffic legislation. A public place is a place to which the public, or part thereof, have access. See also DPP v Vivier [1991] Crim LR 637, DPP v Neville [1996] 160 JP 758 and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance Co. Ltd, Clarke v Kato and Others [1998] 4 All ER 417. Insurance cover is required for the use of a vehicle on a road or a public place.
The onus is on the prosecution to establish that a particular location is a "road" or a "public place".
Bit more that might be worth a read of various cases here:
https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2019/03/11/road-...
That's relevant for laws which apply on a "road or public place", mainly offences under the Road Traffic Act or the Road Traffic Regulation Act. www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic-summary... says:
"Road" or "Other Public Place"
"Road" is defined at s.142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as any length of highway or other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes. The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines 'road' as a line of communication for use of foot passengers and vehicles; while in Oxford v Austin [1981] RTR 416 it was said to be a definable right of way between two points.
The expression 'on a road or other public place' is employed frequently in road traffic legislation. A public place is a place to which the public, or part thereof, have access. See also DPP v Vivier [1991] Crim LR 637, DPP v Neville [1996] 160 JP 758 and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance Co. Ltd, Clarke v Kato and Others [1998] 4 All ER 417. Insurance cover is required for the use of a vehicle on a road or a public place.
The onus is on the prosecution to establish that a particular location is a "road" or a "public place".
Bit more that might be worth a read of various cases here:
https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2019/03/11/road-...
However, numberplate offences come under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act which is a completely different piece of legislation which doesn't use the phrase "public place" at all. Arguing about whether somewhere is a public place is therefore not relevant to whether you have to display a numberplate.
As far as I can see the VERA and its associated regulations don't differentiate between public places and private places at all - they just say that your registration mark (ie numberplate) "must be displayed", the implication being that it must be displayed no matter where the car is. Though a literal reading of that would make it illegal for a garage to remove the numberplate while doing repairs on the car's bodywork, so presumably there must be some scope for a few common sense exceptions at least...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/secti...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/conte...
Aretnap said:
That's relevant for laws which apply on a "road or public place", mainly offences under the Road Traffic Act or the Road Traffic Regulation Act.
However, numberplate offences come under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act which is a completely different piece of legislation which doesn't use the phrase "public place" at all. Arguing about whether somewhere is a public place is therefore not relevant to whether you have to display a numberplate.
As far as I can see the VERA and its associated regulations don't differentiate between public places and private places at all - they just say that your registration mark (ie numberplate) "must be displayed", the implication being that it must be displayed no matter where the car is. Though a literal reading of that would make it illegal for a garage to remove the numberplate while doing repairs on the car's bodywork, so presumably there must be some scope for a few common sense exceptions at least...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/secti...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/conte...
That’s interesting - I notice plenty of cars (myself included) who cover or remove number plates for track days. Are you saying this is illegal as well? Who would police this? Also if I have a car at home for restoration in my garage without plates, this would be illegal too? Seems very odd. Maybe this isn’t as straightforward as initially thought ? However, numberplate offences come under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act which is a completely different piece of legislation which doesn't use the phrase "public place" at all. Arguing about whether somewhere is a public place is therefore not relevant to whether you have to display a numberplate.
As far as I can see the VERA and its associated regulations don't differentiate between public places and private places at all - they just say that your registration mark (ie numberplate) "must be displayed", the implication being that it must be displayed no matter where the car is. Though a literal reading of that would make it illegal for a garage to remove the numberplate while doing repairs on the car's bodywork, so presumably there must be some scope for a few common sense exceptions at least...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/secti...
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/561/conte...
Being pedantic then, if the owner of said car park wished to store an untaxed, unroadworthy and out of use vehicle in a corner of it somewhere, in a dilapidated condition and sans number plates, presumably that would be entirely legal because it's their land and they can do what they like with it? How then does the law move from there, to "it's a public place so you must display a number plate"? The two things surely can't sit side by side?
Just curious!
Just curious!
Southerner said:
Being pedantic then, if the owner of said car park wished to store an untaxed, unroadworthy and out of use vehicle in a corner of it somewhere, in a dilapidated condition and sans number plates, presumably that would be entirely legal because it's their land and they can do what they like with it? How then does the law move from there, to "it's a public place so you must display a number plate"? The two things surely can't sit side by side?
Just curious!
In the case of the farm shop down the road, I suppose the public don't technically have access to the space that's full of rusting untaxed tractor, access is denied by said tractor....Just curious!
Personally, I've covered number plates of SORNed vehicles being moved on a trailer.
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