Need some advice - bought a car for daughter - nightmare!
Discussion
Looking for advice as my recent car purchase has turned into a bit of a nightmare!
Was in the process of buying daughter her first car (a Saab 9-3 convertible diesel) when wife's 2007 Outlander developed gearbox fault. Given cost of gearbox rebuild (£2500) and the fact it was a 2.5 litre petrol guzzler decided scrapping was a better choice. Got various offers from scrappers/we buy any car for about £270. Then a dealer up North with a Saab 9-3 convertible diesel 2008 for sale made me a trade in offer of £950. I negotiated him to do the water pump and timing belt and he said he had already serviced, fitted new spark plugs, done an MOT and fixed electric hood. Flew up to collect car and was disappointed to find exhaust blowing from EGR cooler pipe leading to fumes in cabin. Also a 'Reduced performance' code on dash which he said was due to the fact that the previous owner had changed ECU for one from a slightly different Saab variant which had Lambda sensors whereas my Saab didn't but it didn't affect the operation or driving of the car. Car seemed to run well, interior excellent, exterior a little rust around one rear arch.
Decided to buy car as figured I could sort the exhaust issue and the price (£3750) for a lowish (83k miler) was attractive and the trade in value was super attractive. Got car back home and had EGR cooler pipe sorted and started using car a bit. About 5 weeks after sale car broke down with plumes of black smoke, virtually no performance. Got it recovered to local Saab specialist who diagnosed blocked DPF filter which had blown the exhaust flexi hose off too. Sourced new aftermarket DPF, replaced flexi hose, got a new (spare key fob) and specialist advised a rear brake was seized, handbrake cable rusted and anti roll bar held on by zip ties. Fixing this little lot had cost £1400 by then. So I called selling dealer and after negotiation he paid me £750 towards repairs.
I and my Saab tech were concerned why the DPF had failed as car had been doing all motorway miles with us and after research we discovered that with the car showing a fault on an exhaust sensor the ECU would never schedule a DPF regen so I would be locked in a constant cycle of it blocking up. He replaced both exhaust sensors but this still didn't cure it so he sent it on to another Saab specialist with access to the full gamut of Saab diagnostic (Tech 2) equipment. They eventually realised that the issue was the ECU being slightly different, replaced it with the right ECU, cleared the code and finally the car was fixed, doing its regens with no error codes at all. Bill for that a further £600!! So I'm now in about £2k...
It must be said that my Saab guy in Basingstoke has been absolutely fantastic through all this and he took pity on us to the extent that for the last lot of work he actually did about 6 hours work and only charged for 3. He's extremely thorough, fair, nice and spent years as tech at Saab main agent. He just doesn't have the full tech 2 Saab diagnostics.
He sent his assistant to collect our car yesterday and on the way back to Basingstoke another driver decided to make a right turn from a left lane position. He collided with our car damaging front nearside wing and bonnet. the other driver admitted liability/responsibility and is fully comprehensively insured and provided insurance details at the scene. Unfortunately the guy who helps out my Saab tech only has TPF&T cover on other vehicles. They zip tied the bumper up and drove the car the 2 miles back to base.
My Saab tech rang me yesterday very very upset and sad about this especially as finally the car is fully sorted and he knows I was a Father trying to the best for my daughter whose dream car is a Saab convertible (we're a Saab loving family). He told me that the Reading Saab experts have all the wing/bonnet parts in stock but not in the right colour so a respray will be required, but next door to them are a bodyshop anyway.
My fear is that the guilty party's insurers will write off the car and I will be made a crappy trade value offer of £2000 or something. In reality I paid £3750 for the car under 2 months ago and have spent £2000 (minus the sellers £750 contribution) getting it into tip top condition in the past couple of months so something that cost me £5000 and is now actually a really nice and fully functioning Saab will now net me about £2k. I've had a look in the Classifieds and if you want a 2008 or later 9-3 Vert diesel manual with under 90 000 miles you're looking at about £5k to replace it like for like no matter what the Parkers book value says... https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price...
I guess another option if they do write it off is to buy it back and get it repaired but at whose expense?? Surely not mine!
I'd welcome some advice here. I cannot help thinking that I have been incredibly unlucky for this to happen. A Dad trying to make his 17 year old's dreams come true and to get her a car that would see her into her early/mid twenties safely (Saab are obsessive about safety) and as her commute to college is a motorway run away I wanted her to be in something really solid and stable and safe but economical too. Those Saab diesels do around 50mpg+ on a run, are known to go on for very high mileages, are easy to drive and of course look cool!
Advice please??? My Basingstoke guy has advised me I will no doubt be getting a call from the guilty party's insurers soon. What I want is for them to pay for the car to have new panels/repairs and the necessary respray work done. How to achieve that is another matter...
Saxon
Was in the process of buying daughter her first car (a Saab 9-3 convertible diesel) when wife's 2007 Outlander developed gearbox fault. Given cost of gearbox rebuild (£2500) and the fact it was a 2.5 litre petrol guzzler decided scrapping was a better choice. Got various offers from scrappers/we buy any car for about £270. Then a dealer up North with a Saab 9-3 convertible diesel 2008 for sale made me a trade in offer of £950. I negotiated him to do the water pump and timing belt and he said he had already serviced, fitted new spark plugs, done an MOT and fixed electric hood. Flew up to collect car and was disappointed to find exhaust blowing from EGR cooler pipe leading to fumes in cabin. Also a 'Reduced performance' code on dash which he said was due to the fact that the previous owner had changed ECU for one from a slightly different Saab variant which had Lambda sensors whereas my Saab didn't but it didn't affect the operation or driving of the car. Car seemed to run well, interior excellent, exterior a little rust around one rear arch.
Decided to buy car as figured I could sort the exhaust issue and the price (£3750) for a lowish (83k miler) was attractive and the trade in value was super attractive. Got car back home and had EGR cooler pipe sorted and started using car a bit. About 5 weeks after sale car broke down with plumes of black smoke, virtually no performance. Got it recovered to local Saab specialist who diagnosed blocked DPF filter which had blown the exhaust flexi hose off too. Sourced new aftermarket DPF, replaced flexi hose, got a new (spare key fob) and specialist advised a rear brake was seized, handbrake cable rusted and anti roll bar held on by zip ties. Fixing this little lot had cost £1400 by then. So I called selling dealer and after negotiation he paid me £750 towards repairs.
I and my Saab tech were concerned why the DPF had failed as car had been doing all motorway miles with us and after research we discovered that with the car showing a fault on an exhaust sensor the ECU would never schedule a DPF regen so I would be locked in a constant cycle of it blocking up. He replaced both exhaust sensors but this still didn't cure it so he sent it on to another Saab specialist with access to the full gamut of Saab diagnostic (Tech 2) equipment. They eventually realised that the issue was the ECU being slightly different, replaced it with the right ECU, cleared the code and finally the car was fixed, doing its regens with no error codes at all. Bill for that a further £600!! So I'm now in about £2k...
It must be said that my Saab guy in Basingstoke has been absolutely fantastic through all this and he took pity on us to the extent that for the last lot of work he actually did about 6 hours work and only charged for 3. He's extremely thorough, fair, nice and spent years as tech at Saab main agent. He just doesn't have the full tech 2 Saab diagnostics.
He sent his assistant to collect our car yesterday and on the way back to Basingstoke another driver decided to make a right turn from a left lane position. He collided with our car damaging front nearside wing and bonnet. the other driver admitted liability/responsibility and is fully comprehensively insured and provided insurance details at the scene. Unfortunately the guy who helps out my Saab tech only has TPF&T cover on other vehicles. They zip tied the bumper up and drove the car the 2 miles back to base.
My Saab tech rang me yesterday very very upset and sad about this especially as finally the car is fully sorted and he knows I was a Father trying to the best for my daughter whose dream car is a Saab convertible (we're a Saab loving family). He told me that the Reading Saab experts have all the wing/bonnet parts in stock but not in the right colour so a respray will be required, but next door to them are a bodyshop anyway.
My fear is that the guilty party's insurers will write off the car and I will be made a crappy trade value offer of £2000 or something. In reality I paid £3750 for the car under 2 months ago and have spent £2000 (minus the sellers £750 contribution) getting it into tip top condition in the past couple of months so something that cost me £5000 and is now actually a really nice and fully functioning Saab will now net me about £2k. I've had a look in the Classifieds and if you want a 2008 or later 9-3 Vert diesel manual with under 90 000 miles you're looking at about £5k to replace it like for like no matter what the Parkers book value says... https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?sort=price...
I guess another option if they do write it off is to buy it back and get it repaired but at whose expense?? Surely not mine!
I'd welcome some advice here. I cannot help thinking that I have been incredibly unlucky for this to happen. A Dad trying to make his 17 year old's dreams come true and to get her a car that would see her into her early/mid twenties safely (Saab are obsessive about safety) and as her commute to college is a motorway run away I wanted her to be in something really solid and stable and safe but economical too. Those Saab diesels do around 50mpg+ on a run, are known to go on for very high mileages, are easy to drive and of course look cool!
Advice please??? My Basingstoke guy has advised me I will no doubt be getting a call from the guilty party's insurers soon. What I want is for them to pay for the car to have new panels/repairs and the necessary respray work done. How to achieve that is another matter...
Saxon
The third party insurance will do what they deem as economical, how much you spent on the car will not be taken into account.
If it’s uneconomical to repair they will just write it off, there won’t be much (if any) negotiation.
I would expect you can negotiate on it’s value though, never take the first offer.
If you don’t car about re-sale value and intend to keep the car for a longer period I’d accept the write off value and agree to buy the car back from the insurance for what is usually a very small amount of money.
Get the repairs done yourself and then you shouldn’t be really out of pocket and don’t have to look at another car.
Just make sure you really do want to keep this one, as it sounds like it was a bit of lemon to start off with!
If it’s uneconomical to repair they will just write it off, there won’t be much (if any) negotiation.
I would expect you can negotiate on it’s value though, never take the first offer.
If you don’t car about re-sale value and intend to keep the car for a longer period I’d accept the write off value and agree to buy the car back from the insurance for what is usually a very small amount of money.
Get the repairs done yourself and then you shouldn’t be really out of pocket and don’t have to look at another car.
Just make sure you really do want to keep this one, as it sounds like it was a bit of lemon to start off with!
Edited by lb3nson on Tuesday 10th May 08:22
What a sad story from someone so caring of their daughter.
To give you some reassurance. A friends car just got "written off" for very little damage and they got a cracking valuation. Easily enough to walk into a dealer and buy replacement. Not all insurance firms are con artists.
Good luck - you deserve all you can get.
To give you some reassurance. A friends car just got "written off" for very little damage and they got a cracking valuation. Easily enough to walk into a dealer and buy replacement. Not all insurance firms are con artists.
Good luck - you deserve all you can get.
You may want to consider collating adverts for like for like examples of the car for sale from AT etc for use in negotiating any potential write off value/offer. The insurance company should put you in the position you were in prior to the claim. If it’s not now possible to purchase a like for like vehicle for less than £x then really they shouldn’t offer you less than that. It may well happen however, hence starting now in collecting your ammunition to push hard for a higher payout if needs be.
I would politely ask the garage who were in charge of your vehicle at the time of the accident what the options are?
I would be looking to see what the value of your car was prior to this incident.
It is irrelevant what you have had to spend on it to get there but you are entitled to a vehicle which is of equal standard.
It is their insurance that is going to be used for this claim, let them do the sorting out.
You are entitled to a vehicle which is in pre accident condition how they do it is down to them.
They sound like a decent garage so you should be fine.
I would be looking to see what the value of your car was prior to this incident.
It is irrelevant what you have had to spend on it to get there but you are entitled to a vehicle which is of equal standard.
It is their insurance that is going to be used for this claim, let them do the sorting out.
You are entitled to a vehicle which is in pre accident condition how they do it is down to them.
They sound like a decent garage so you should be fine.
Heathwood said:
You may want to consider collating adverts for like for like examples of the car for sale from AT etc for use in negotiating any potential write off value/offer. The insurance company should put you in the position you were in prior to the claim. If it’s not now possible to purchase a like for like vehicle for less than £x then really they shouldn’t offer you less than that. It may well happen however, hence starting now in collecting your ammunition to push hard for a higher payout if needs be.
From my personal experience of a write off this is not how it works, they will pay ‘market value’ which is often determined by CAP or Glass guide, regardless of what you paid for the car, estimated it’s value at or will cost to buy another. It’s not fair, but it is how it works.However, they will also try to screw you on the first offer anyway so you always need to fight them for the best payout you can get - just don’t expect to get all the perceived value of the car back
OP, colleague of mine had an 08 1.8t Convertible that he had to park outside his house, on the corner of a road in Coventry (quite legally, I should add). Some idiot came round the corner and caught his OSF wing and bumper. The car was still driveable but as the miscreant neglected to stop he had to make a claim. The insurers wrote the car off, much to our surprise. He was given the option to but it back but declined, being in no way "a car guy".
I think insurers consider Saabs to be a higher risk nowadays due to perceived availability of parts. While that is becoming true for the older stuff (like mine), there are myriad Saab specialists and breakers around, so if you're happy with the pre-incident condition of the car, and your local indie, I'd be inclined to try and buy it from the insurers - as someone above mentioned. Better the devil you know, etc.
Good luck with whatever you do, OP.
I think insurers consider Saabs to be a higher risk nowadays due to perceived availability of parts. While that is becoming true for the older stuff (like mine), there are myriad Saab specialists and breakers around, so if you're happy with the pre-incident condition of the car, and your local indie, I'd be inclined to try and buy it from the insurers - as someone above mentioned. Better the devil you know, etc.
Good luck with whatever you do, OP.
When my partner had a slight incident with a van, my Saab 9-5 was written off by my insurance company.
They sent an offer, which i rejected (from memory it was £950). They asked for evidence of valuations so I sent three or four screen grabs of similar spec/year/mileage from Autotrader and they revised their offer to £1400, which I took.
I then bought the "scrap" car back off them for £250
Bought a front wing, bumper, headlight assembly and slam panel from a scrapyard up north for £150 in the right colour and fitted them (wings are bolt on).
Kept car for another 5 years or so until it died.
So i'd say it is worth negotiating value and researching replacement cost. It is also worth looking on eBay or scrapyard websites for a car in the same colour to get replacement panels from. Not having to spray them will save a load of cash.
Once you get it fixed up it should be a great car. I've been running my Saab 'vert for about 8 years and its now got 160k on the clock. Still goes well.
They sent an offer, which i rejected (from memory it was £950). They asked for evidence of valuations so I sent three or four screen grabs of similar spec/year/mileage from Autotrader and they revised their offer to £1400, which I took.
I then bought the "scrap" car back off them for £250
Bought a front wing, bumper, headlight assembly and slam panel from a scrapyard up north for £150 in the right colour and fitted them (wings are bolt on).
Kept car for another 5 years or so until it died.
So i'd say it is worth negotiating value and researching replacement cost. It is also worth looking on eBay or scrapyard websites for a car in the same colour to get replacement panels from. Not having to spray them will save a load of cash.
Once you get it fixed up it should be a great car. I've been running my Saab 'vert for about 8 years and its now got 160k on the clock. Still goes well.
I'm confused!
The OP gave his car to a garage to repair, they then smashed it up. Surely it is the garage's responsibility to return it to their customer, in the same condition they received it, ASAP.
If the garage believe the damage is someone else's fault then surely they should claim that back from the 3rd party's insurance.
I don't understand why the 3rd party's insurer will contact the OP, the OP and the 3rd party's insurance seem (to me) to have no connection.
It sounds like the garage did not have the correct business insurance for the job they were doing and now want to push all the hassle and loss onto the OP.
The OP gave his car to a garage to repair, they then smashed it up. Surely it is the garage's responsibility to return it to their customer, in the same condition they received it, ASAP.
If the garage believe the damage is someone else's fault then surely they should claim that back from the 3rd party's insurance.
I don't understand why the 3rd party's insurer will contact the OP, the OP and the 3rd party's insurance seem (to me) to have no connection.
It sounds like the garage did not have the correct business insurance for the job they were doing and now want to push all the hassle and loss onto the OP.
Firstly I'd just like to say a big thank-you for all the supportive and helpful comments. This one was a bit of a dog when we bought it but after all we have done to it I'm inclined to think the devil I know is better than the devil I don't. Nothing else I buy at this price will have so many brand new parts at least lol!
If they do write it off I am hoping to haggle the settlement up to a realistic price (which to be honest to buy an equivalent is around £5k and as others have suggested will then seek to buy it back and hope that my Saab Indy will use his contacts in the trade to get it properly repaired and resprayed as the car was crashed on his watch. Hopefully by doing that we won't be out of pocket and can keep the car.
Vaud - re insurance I checked out both the pre-test and post test insurance. My original thought was to buy her a Golf but judging by the second hand values of those I realised that I could put her in a Saab TiD convertible for the same money as a Golf hatchback and as you say as a 17/18 year old it's pretty obvious which you'd choose lol!!
I then got insurance quotes for both cars and to my surprise the premiums were around the same - about £360 p/a while she is learning and about £1200 p/a after she passes.
Running costs should be similar too - the Saab is a really lovely car and my TiD convertible I ran for 7.5 years and 100 000 miles prior to my GT86 I still regard as the best all round car I ever owned. it's actually a really lovely car
If they do write it off I am hoping to haggle the settlement up to a realistic price (which to be honest to buy an equivalent is around £5k and as others have suggested will then seek to buy it back and hope that my Saab Indy will use his contacts in the trade to get it properly repaired and resprayed as the car was crashed on his watch. Hopefully by doing that we won't be out of pocket and can keep the car.
Vaud - re insurance I checked out both the pre-test and post test insurance. My original thought was to buy her a Golf but judging by the second hand values of those I realised that I could put her in a Saab TiD convertible for the same money as a Golf hatchback and as you say as a 17/18 year old it's pretty obvious which you'd choose lol!!
I then got insurance quotes for both cars and to my surprise the premiums were around the same - about £360 p/a while she is learning and about £1200 p/a after she passes.
Running costs should be similar too - the Saab is a really lovely car and my TiD convertible I ran for 7.5 years and 100 000 miles prior to my GT86 I still regard as the best all round car I ever owned. it's actually a really lovely car
Edited by saxon on Tuesday 10th May 09:41
If it’s an agreed non-fault just deal directly with the third party insurers. Make it clear from the start that if they write it off you want to retain the car as salvage - you don’t have a contract with them where you’ve subjugated your rights like you do with your own insurance so they can’t force an outcome on you.
That said, it’s totally unacceptable for someone who “helps out” a garage to not be properly insured when driving customer cars.
That said, it’s totally unacceptable for someone who “helps out” a garage to not be properly insured when driving customer cars.
charltjr said:
If it’s an agreed non-fault just deal directly with the third party insurers. Make it clear from the start that if they write it off you want to retain the car as salvage - you don’t have a contract with them where you’ve subjugated your rights like you do with your own insurance so they can’t force an outcome on you.
That said, it’s totally unacceptable for someone who “helps out” a garage to not be properly insured when driving customer cars.
That's very interesting information Chartjr - do you mean I can legally force them to repair the car rather than write it off??That said, it’s totally unacceptable for someone who “helps out” a garage to not be properly insured when driving customer cars.
That could be a very significant legal point!!!
Saxon
PS Totally agree re the fact the guy 'helping out' needs to be fully comp - especially as about 30 years ago I was working in insurance for a while and know how important it is. Worst case I ever saw in my training was a guy who built up his nightclub empire and ended up with a £10m nightclub. The insurance premiums kept rising year on year and eventually he decided not to bother insuring it for fire etc. The next year the place burnt to the ground and he lost everything he ever worked for over 30 years... He was interviewed and said he simply would never be able to get back to where he was.
saxon said:
Vaud - re insurance I checked out both the pre-test and post test insurance. My original thought was to buy her a Golf but judging by the second hand values of those I realised that I could put her in a Saab TiD convertible for the same money as a Golf hatchback and as you say as a 17/18 year old it's pretty obvious which you'd choose lol!!
I then got insurance quotes for both cars and to my surprise the premiums were around the same - about £360 p/a while she is learning and about £1200 p/a after she passes.
Amazing value I then got insurance quotes for both cars and to my surprise the premiums were around the same - about £360 p/a while she is learning and about £1200 p/a after she passes.
lb3nson said:
From my personal experience of a write off this is not how it works, they will pay ‘market value’ which is often determined by CAP or Glass guide, regardless of what you paid for the car, estimated it’s value at or will cost to buy another. It’s not fair, but it is how it works.
However, they will also try to screw you on the first offer anyway so you always need to fight them for the best payout you can get - just don’t expect to get all the perceived value of the car back
That may be down to your insurer and not in line with my experience with LV.However, they will also try to screw you on the first offer anyway so you always need to fight them for the best payout you can get - just don’t expect to get all the perceived value of the car back
Reasonably big claim with last August - on the basis of 5 or adverts from PH and Autotrader their first offer was just shy of paying for a reasonably close replacement. One phone call and LV upped the offer to the advertised value of the closest match car.
Not an expert, but when my parents have and car repairs they have taken the car to a couple of local bodyshops who have quoted repair.
Can your Saab guy not quote for the insurance repair, using second hand bumper etc, at a price that works for everyone.
As said, sounds like you have had the run around with this car.
But also a reminder to make sure insurance coverage does what you want. Garage should have been fully comp, and certainly if you didn't know they weren't a lot of it in their court in my eyes. If hard if they are also doing you a favour, but a lot of this is their failure to insure themselves suitable.
It also raises the question about agreed value and gap insurance type policy options for these sorts of car where condition in significantly above their book/market value.
Can your Saab guy not quote for the insurance repair, using second hand bumper etc, at a price that works for everyone.
As said, sounds like you have had the run around with this car.
But also a reminder to make sure insurance coverage does what you want. Garage should have been fully comp, and certainly if you didn't know they weren't a lot of it in their court in my eyes. If hard if they are also doing you a favour, but a lot of this is their failure to insure themselves suitable.
It also raises the question about agreed value and gap insurance type policy options for these sorts of car where condition in significantly above their book/market value.
saxon said:
That's very interesting information Chartjr - do you mean I can legally force them to repair the car rather than write it off??
Not quite - but you haven't got a contract with them where you agree that they can dispose of the car as they see fit which is quite often part of insurance contracts these days. It would actually probably work out in your interest when they write the car off anyway, you get the car back for next to nothing, get a payout and then repair it with used body parts, you'll likely come away with a fixed car and money in your pocket.
charltjr said:
Not quite - but you haven't got a contract with them where you agree that they can dispose of the car as they see fit which is quite often part of insurance contracts these days.
It would actually probably work out in your interest when they write the car off anyway, you get the car back for next to nothing, get a payout and then repair it with used body parts, you'll likely come away with a fixed car and money in your pocket.
Technically, the other party's insurer cannot 'write the car off' because it's not on their book to start with.It would actually probably work out in your interest when they write the car off anyway, you get the car back for next to nothing, get a payout and then repair it with used body parts, you'll likely come away with a fixed car and money in your pocket.
The risk which they have 'on their book' is the other party's liability to you. Settlement of that may or may not involve them taking the car.
I'm not sure if taking a full value payment from another party's insurer can still result in the car acquiring a 'category'.
You must inform your own insurer, they do talk to one another, and sometimes turn out to be the same people....
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