Prosecution for phone use via cameras
Discussion
I understand the technology is available, and a new law changed in March meaning there's no exemptions to touching or using your phone AT ALL.
my question is, at this point in time is it legal to be proescuted for phone use by cameras? The law regarding phone use is there, but does the equipment/technology need to be approved before it can be used to prosecute?
Thanks
my question is, at this point in time is it legal to be proescuted for phone use by cameras? The law regarding phone use is there, but does the equipment/technology need to be approved before it can be used to prosecute?
Thanks
IntriguedUser said:
I understand the technology is available, and a new law changed in March meaning there's no exemptions to touching or using your phone AT ALL.
my question is, at this point in time is it legal to be proescuted for phone use by cameras? The law regarding phone use is there, but does the equipment/technology need to be approved before it can be used to prosecute?
Thanks
Can't really answer your hypothetical camera question, but can say you've got the phone bit completely wrong even using capitals.my question is, at this point in time is it legal to be proescuted for phone use by cameras? The law regarding phone use is there, but does the equipment/technology need to be approved before it can be used to prosecute?
Thanks
IntriguedUser said:
my question is, at this point in time is it legal to be proescuted for phone use by cameras? The law regarding phone use is there, but does the equipment/technology need to be approved before it can be used to prosecute?
No, there is no requirement for cameras to have any particular approval before they can be used in evidence. If you take a video on your phone of someone being assaulted in a pub that video can be used as evidence in a criminal trial, and taking a video of someone committing a motoring offence is no different.Strictly speaking speed cameras don't need type approval even when used in speeding prosecutions. If they're type approved it just means that there is a simplified process for submitting their evidence to a court via a certificate, and doesn't require a witness to come to court to explain the circumstances in which the film was made, or the workings of the device.
littleredrooster said:
Super Sonic said:
Oceanrower said:
I’ll save BertBert the effort.
The law applies to hand held mobile phones. What you do with it in a cradle (outwith dangerous/careless driving) is up to you…
Including YouTube music videos?The law applies to hand held mobile phones. What you do with it in a cradle (outwith dangerous/careless driving) is up to you…
Oceanrower said:
If he doesn’t understand what outwith means, you’ve no chance with parentheses…
Most of us aren't Scottish? 
"Scottish Twitter users have shared their shock after discovering that the word 'outwith' is only used in Scotland.
A flurry of posts saw users discover the term is only native to our bonnie lands, and not used further afield."
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/scottis...
Aretnap said:
No, there is no requirement for cameras to have any particular approval before they can be used in evidence. If you take a video on your phone of someone being assaulted in a pub that video can be used as evidence in a criminal trial, and taking a video of someone committing a motoring offence is no different.
Strictly speaking speed cameras don't need type approval even when used in speeding prosecutions. If they're type approved it just means that there is a simplified process for submitting their evidence to a court via a certificate, and doesn't require a witness to come to court to explain the circumstances in which the film was made, or the workings of the device.
Thanks, do you know if anyone has been prosecuted by a mobile phone detection camera in the UK?Strictly speaking speed cameras don't need type approval even when used in speeding prosecutions. If they're type approved it just means that there is a simplified process for submitting their evidence to a court via a certificate, and doesn't require a witness to come to court to explain the circumstances in which the film was made, or the workings of the device.
IntriguedUser said:
Thanks, do you know if anyone has been prosecuted by a mobile phone detection camera in the UK?
Not sure there's such an animal as a 'Mobile phone detection camera' yet. I do know, however that Northants police often record passing traffic at an RTC and prosecute anyone caught filming the scene whilst driving. IIRC, they got something like 60 from one incident alone.littleredrooster said:
IntriguedUser said:
Thanks, do you know if anyone has been prosecuted by a mobile phone detection camera in the UK?
Not sure there's such an animal as a 'Mobile phone detection camera' yet. I do know, however that Northants police often record passing traffic at an RTC and prosecute anyone caught filming the scene whilst driving. IIRC, they got something like 60 from one incident alone.https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/30/new-game-changer-ca...
Edited for missing link
Edited by Countdown on Tuesday 14th June 18:55
littleredrooster said:
IntriguedUser said:
Thanks, do you know if anyone has been prosecuted by a mobile phone detection camera in the UK?
Not sure there's such an animal as a 'Mobile phone detection camera' yet. I do know, however that Northants police often record passing traffic at an RTC and prosecute anyone caught filming the scene whilst driving. IIRC, they got something like 60 from one incident alone.
Mobile phone cameras are being trialled as we speak:
https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/30/new-game-changer-ca...
But they do require being legally approved for use, hence why they are being tested at the moment.
When they do go live, the amount of people caught will be absolutely staggering.
https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/30/new-game-changer-ca...
But they do require being legally approved for use, hence why they are being tested at the moment.
When they do go live, the amount of people caught will be absolutely staggering.
e-honda said:
A picture of someone holding a rectangle really shouldn't be enough to get someone a criminal conviction.
If it was something else in their hand, I presume they are free to challenge the NIP in court, where they could turn up with the rectangular phone-like object, and the court can decide. Everyone has the right to challenge it.I don't know about you, but I own no other item that looks like a phone, that I would ever be holding in my hand whilst driving down the motorway.
This image is pretty clear, and can even zoom right in to show if the seatbelt is in use. Also, I think we can assume these were relatively low resolution images sent out for use by the press. I imagine the original image will be able to be zoomed in on considerably with little loss of detail.
Lord Marylebone said:
If it was something else in their hand, I presume they are free to challenge the NIP in court, where they could turn up with the rectangular phone-like object, and the court can decide. Everyone has the right to challenge it.
I don't know about you, but I own no other item that looks like a phone, that I would ever be holding in my hand whilst driving down the motorway.
This image is pretty clear, and can even zoom right in to show if the seatbelt is in use. Also, I think we can assume these were relatively low resolution images sent out for use by the press. I imagine the original image will be able to be zoomed in on considerably with little loss of detail.
If I am hold my sunglasses case and this machine misidentifies it as a phone what are my chances of convincing anyone.I don't know about you, but I own no other item that looks like a phone, that I would ever be holding in my hand whilst driving down the motorway.
This image is pretty clear, and can even zoom right in to show if the seatbelt is in use. Also, I think we can assume these were relatively low resolution images sent out for use by the press. I imagine the original image will be able to be zoomed in on considerably with little loss of detail.
If the chance is reasonable then everyone will just say it was a sunglasses case, so it's pointless. If on the other hand the courts believe the tech to be infallible then a number of innocent people will be convicted because I've done enough image recognition work to know it will be far from infallible.
e-honda said:
If I am hold my sunglasses case and this machine misidentifies it as a phone what are my chances of convincing anyone.
If the chance is reasonable then everyone will just say it was a sunglasses case, so it's pointless. If on the other hand the courts believe the tech to be infallible then a number of innocent people will be convicted because I've done enough image recognition work to know it will be far from infallible.
The process isn’t fully automated. Every ‘suspect’ image is sent to a human operative who can zoom in and examine it, before it gets anywhere near a NIP being issued. If the chance is reasonable then everyone will just say it was a sunglasses case, so it's pointless. If on the other hand the courts believe the tech to be infallible then a number of innocent people will be convicted because I've done enough image recognition work to know it will be far from infallible.
The confirmation that someone was actually holding a phone, and the NIP being sent out is all done by a human.
I’m making an assumption here, but I suspect they will err on the side of caution if they aren’t 100% sure it’s a phone, as they won’t want the technology or the technique questioned court in a regular basis.
The way people hold a mobile phone is quite distinctive, and likely to be way different to the way you would hold a sunglasses case for those few brief seconds.
Are you honestly worried about getting an NIP because you handled a sunglasses case at the exact split second you went past one of these cameras? And in that split second, you where holding your sunglasses case in the exact way a person would hold a mobile phone?
Because I think the chances of that happening are staggeringly remote.
Edited to add: I’m pleased that these cameras are being introduced. I sometimes drive long distances on motorways for work, and the amount of morons I see holding a phone in their hand, texting, snapchatting, scrolling Instagram, or FaceTime calling, of whatever is absolutely unbelievable.
The sooner can start giving thousands of them 6 points each month, the better.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 15th June 12:20
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