Motorway variable speed question
Discussion
You drive past this sign on a motorway. The next sign has nothing on it, the speed limit is therefore still 50mph. Is that correct? I don't see it in the highway code anywhere.
Personally I just go back to 70 but apparently I've been driving on borrowed time. I've had conflicting answers and I have been pointed towards The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (couldn't find the answer there either) so I'm still at square 1. Any thoughts? And if you know the legislation that'd be ideal.
Personally I just go back to 70 but apparently I've been driving on borrowed time. I've had conflicting answers and I have been pointed towards The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 (couldn't find the answer there either) so I'm still at square 1. Any thoughts? And if you know the legislation that'd be ideal.
Technically the speed limit runs until there is an "END" displayed. These are set by MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection And Speeds), basically congestion detectors, the idea is to slow drivers down so they don't run into the back of the queue. Unfortunately they often are triggered for no apparent reason but, as the speeds shown are enforceable, you are stuck obeying if there is a speed camera.
Practically the limit may not be enforcable.
For example a driver who had to stop due to an emergency and then is able to start again would be unaware of a limit that had been set after he had passsed the sign. He can legitimately believe that no limit applies when he gets to the next blank sign.
Also, anyone joining the motorway beyond the temporary limit would have no reason to believe it was still in force when passing a blank sign.
The only sensible ( but maybe not legally correct ) indication that can be taken from a blank sign is that there is no longer a limit in force.
For example a driver who had to stop due to an emergency and then is able to start again would be unaware of a limit that had been set after he had passsed the sign. He can legitimately believe that no limit applies when he gets to the next blank sign.
Also, anyone joining the motorway beyond the temporary limit would have no reason to believe it was still in force when passing a blank sign.
The only sensible ( but maybe not legally correct ) indication that can be taken from a blank sign is that there is no longer a limit in force.
With overnight roadworks, they seem to be routinely set with no "End" or NSL sign, with the same on the red "X" symbols too, so it's not just faulty signs.
Usual pattern in roadworks seems to be drop down to a 40 or 30 limit with the red X symbol on lanes which are about to be coned off in the approach to the closure. That all seems logical enough, but then you often pass where they are laying the cones (or right through the lane closure and out of the other end if they've finished setting up) often with nothing at all displayed on the signs
It seems crazy that the control system allows it to be set up like this - it wouldn't be hard for the control software to require an exit point to be defined where the limit ends. It would also be better to have a very obvious limit displayed in the area where it's most needed where the work is taking place.
Usual pattern in roadworks seems to be drop down to a 40 or 30 limit with the red X symbol on lanes which are about to be coned off in the approach to the closure. That all seems logical enough, but then you often pass where they are laying the cones (or right through the lane closure and out of the other end if they've finished setting up) often with nothing at all displayed on the signs
It seems crazy that the control system allows it to be set up like this - it wouldn't be hard for the control software to require an exit point to be defined where the limit ends. It would also be better to have a very obvious limit displayed in the area where it's most needed where the work is taking place.
Where it can get dangerous as well as annoying is if you pass a sign (especially those seemingly abandoned roadworks restriction signs in particular. Yes, I'm looking at you) saying e.g. 50. You slow down. You drive at 50 for a while, Everyone else flashing or overtaking you. You start to think the sign's been abandoned and that you should go back up to 70. But has it?
I drove from M11 to A13 on the M25 last Tuesday night at 2.30 am due to the 60mph sign being up, for no reason what so ever. No vehicles on the hard shoulder, no slow moving traffic no road workers, just me and few other vehicles.. bloody frustrating when I want to get home to bed. Also the real heavy rain we had in June I was coming back from Gatwick in the early hours. The speed limits on the gantry just kept changing 60-40-50-60-40 etc all the way up the M23 then it did the same on the M25, this was particularly dangerous as foreign lorry drivers keep to the max that they could do and I was plodding along at 40mph for most of the time. Im sure someone thinks that they are helping but they are so not..
Oh another one, a lovely Saturday afternoon on the M1, a car is on the hard shoulder broken down, all the 3-4 lanes next to the hard shoulder are red X and every one is now driving in the outside lane, crazy tailbacks for no reason.
Oh another one, a lovely Saturday afternoon on the M1, a car is on the hard shoulder broken down, all the 3-4 lanes next to the hard shoulder are red X and every one is now driving in the outside lane, crazy tailbacks for no reason.
SkodaIan said:
With overnight roadworks, they seem to be routinely set with no "End" or NSL sign, with the same on the red "X" symbols too, so it's not just faulty signs.
Usual pattern in roadworks seems to be drop down to a 40 or 30 limit with the red X symbol on lanes which are about to be coned off in the approach to the closure. That all seems logical enough, but then you often pass where they are laying the cones (or right through the lane closure and out of the other end if they've finished setting up) often with nothing at all displayed on the signs
It seems crazy that the control system allows it to be set up like this - it wouldn't be hard for the control software to require an exit point to be defined where the limit ends. It would also be better to have a very obvious limit displayed in the area where it's most needed where the work is taking place.
Similar on the M6 southbound on 07/07/2022. Overhead gantry displays 40 and red X for lane 4, warns of accident IIRC. Next couple of gantries the same, then nothing. No accident or debris in sight. How far do you continue at 40 being passed by vehicles doing 70(+). National Highways told me there is always an 'End' or NSL displayed. Glad to hear it's not just me seeing this junk.Usual pattern in roadworks seems to be drop down to a 40 or 30 limit with the red X symbol on lanes which are about to be coned off in the approach to the closure. That all seems logical enough, but then you often pass where they are laying the cones (or right through the lane closure and out of the other end if they've finished setting up) often with nothing at all displayed on the signs
It seems crazy that the control system allows it to be set up like this - it wouldn't be hard for the control software to require an exit point to be defined where the limit ends. It would also be better to have a very obvious limit displayed in the area where it's most needed where the work is taking place.
Management of these signs is atrocious at best and down right dangerous at worst.
Apparently a lot of it is actually algorithm controlled and hence when you get the absolutely daft limits and lane closures at times.
I hit a 20 limit straight from a 70 on the M25 CW around Heathrow once. It was chaos.
They've now started Red X-ing lanes before you get to the cones to "merge filter" at the 10pm Roadworks. Already seen one accident as a direct result of this.
Apparently a lot of it is actually algorithm controlled and hence when you get the absolutely daft limits and lane closures at times.
I hit a 20 limit straight from a 70 on the M25 CW around Heathrow once. It was chaos.
They've now started Red X-ing lanes before you get to the cones to "merge filter" at the 10pm Roadworks. Already seen one accident as a direct result of this.
ridds said:
Management of these signs is atrocious at best and down right dangerous at worst.
Apparently a lot of it is actually algorithm controlled and hence when you get the absolutely daft limits and lane closures at times.
I hit a 20 limit straight from a 70 on the M25 CW around Heathrow once. It was chaos.
They've now started Red X-ing lanes before you get to the cones to "merge filter" at the 10pm Roadworks. Already seen one accident as a direct result of this.
I tend to agree, leaving it to automated systems is chaotic at the best of timesApparently a lot of it is actually algorithm controlled and hence when you get the absolutely daft limits and lane closures at times.
I hit a 20 limit straight from a 70 on the M25 CW around Heathrow once. It was chaos.
They've now started Red X-ing lanes before you get to the cones to "merge filter" at the 10pm Roadworks. Already seen one accident as a direct result of this.
I asked a question about this a long time ago re some roadworks on the M42. Essentially there were signs gradually bringing the speed limit down to 20. Then we got to a bit where there were a couple of cone laying trucks sat on the hard shoulder waiting to start work. Then a couple of gantries still showing 20 then nothing until quite some distance later the NSL signs.
All the lanes were actually clear, no cones or signs yet in place.
The argument from Highways Agency for the blank gantries was that they knew how long the roadworks were going to be ultimately, hence the positioning of the NSL signs Claimed that they would ultimately put up the missing limit signs after the trucks finished but in the control room they didn't know exactly when they would start or their progression along the route so they didn't put the signs up.
Which raised the point that drivers were confused as to the limit and you had some thinking, technically correctly imo, that the limit was still 20, some thinking they were past the hazard, also technically correct, assuming that the limit was now 70, and then another lot who realised that trying to do 20 wasn't safe in light of stuff piling past and sitting somewhere in between but presumably alert in case of another hazard. In answer to the question that didn't HA think this was not exactly a safe or convenient way to handle setting up a roadworks there was no answer. Just confirmed HA not fit for purpose.
All the lanes were actually clear, no cones or signs yet in place.
The argument from Highways Agency for the blank gantries was that they knew how long the roadworks were going to be ultimately, hence the positioning of the NSL signs Claimed that they would ultimately put up the missing limit signs after the trucks finished but in the control room they didn't know exactly when they would start or their progression along the route so they didn't put the signs up.
Which raised the point that drivers were confused as to the limit and you had some thinking, technically correctly imo, that the limit was still 20, some thinking they were past the hazard, also technically correct, assuming that the limit was now 70, and then another lot who realised that trying to do 20 wasn't safe in light of stuff piling past and sitting somewhere in between but presumably alert in case of another hazard. In answer to the question that didn't HA think this was not exactly a safe or convenient way to handle setting up a roadworks there was no answer. Just confirmed HA not fit for purpose.
It could be a good system if it worked correctly. There’s to many incorrect signs that people now ignore them as 80% of the time there’s no reason for them.
Had several times at night claiming road closures all traffic going to one lane huge tailbacks, then all of a sudden all signs blank and not a lane closure to be seen just ridiculous.
First sign m6 south of j16 has been saying ‘caution queue 40mph’ for about 3 months now.
M62 Monday night, ‘queue ahead 60’ literally empty motorway, then 50, still empty, then 40 on a gantry with a camera ‘coincidently’, still empty, then NSL, why.
Had several times at night claiming road closures all traffic going to one lane huge tailbacks, then all of a sudden all signs blank and not a lane closure to be seen just ridiculous.
First sign m6 south of j16 has been saying ‘caution queue 40mph’ for about 3 months now.
M62 Monday night, ‘queue ahead 60’ literally empty motorway, then 50, still empty, then 40 on a gantry with a camera ‘coincidently’, still empty, then NSL, why.
Only partially relevant, but with regards to "60 limit for no reason" scenarios and so on, when they do actually work correctly then this is the sort of thing that will inevitably happen...
Say up ahead there is a queue, or very slow moving traffic, caused by there simply not being enough capacity on the road for the volume of traffic trying to use it.
The signs earlier up the road will automatically set a lower limit to try and slow the flow of traffic arriving at the queue. With fewer cars arriving, the queue has time to clear without the constant stream of additional vehicles arriving on the scene.
Annoyingly for those who have followed the lower limit they then see the limit disappear again 'for no reason'. They don't see the queue they were apparently slowing down for, because the whole point is that the queue has now cleared
I'm neither for / against smart motorways, just saying that when they work as intended, comically the whole point is that from your perspective, you've slowed down for no reason.
Say up ahead there is a queue, or very slow moving traffic, caused by there simply not being enough capacity on the road for the volume of traffic trying to use it.
The signs earlier up the road will automatically set a lower limit to try and slow the flow of traffic arriving at the queue. With fewer cars arriving, the queue has time to clear without the constant stream of additional vehicles arriving on the scene.
Annoyingly for those who have followed the lower limit they then see the limit disappear again 'for no reason'. They don't see the queue they were apparently slowing down for, because the whole point is that the queue has now cleared
I'm neither for / against smart motorways, just saying that when they work as intended, comically the whole point is that from your perspective, you've slowed down for no reason.
Had this last week on the A1(M) when the gantries started displaying 40 and a warning of a queue ahead. I start to back off, everyone else still flies past at 70+, move in L1 and get overtaken by an HGV, next gantry still says 40 and I seem to be the only person doing close to that speed. third gantry is blank. The temptation to ignore them and just do the speed of surrounding traffic is high, but that runs the risk of there being no cameras.
Pica-Pica said:
This is a regular question on here. Legally, the previously displayed limit still applies - technically only the NSL is enforceable if there is no repeated lower speed sign. Highways England (or whatever they are now called) have confirmed this to me previously in an email.
So in this scenario I got flashed. So I broke the limit yet on a technical level I could argue this in court ( I most likely won't do this if an NIP turns up). Did they point you to some legislation? I've been told repeater signs must occur every 250m but from skimming the regulations in the original post and a bit of the road traffic act I don't see it anywhere.Pica-Pica said:
This is a regular question on here. Legally, the previously displayed limit still applies - technically only the NSL is enforceable if there is no repeated lower speed sign. Highways England (or whatever they are now called) have confirmed this to me previously in an email.
So in this scenario I got flashed. So I broke the limit yet on a technical level I could argue this in court ( I most likely won't do this if an NIP turns up). Did they point you to some legislation? I've been told repeater signs must occur every 250m but from skimming the regulations in the original post and a bit of the road traffic act I don't see it anywhere.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff