Just Stop (whatever) and the general public...
Discussion
leaving aside the political element of these loons/extremists/heroes/whatever - what are the public allowed to do and not allowed to do when encountering these types? I know that the police chief has asked that members of the public not get involved - and yet the public (rightly)get criticised for not involving themselves in other situations.
If you're talking about people glued to the road I'm not suggesting that we should be allowed to drive over their extremities (as pleasing as that brief thought might be depending on situation!) but...
- if I drag someone off the road and their skin is left there is that assault?
- if I drag someone off before the glue has set, is that illegal?
onto more silly/juvenile things
- what if my dog used them as a lamppost?
- what if I dropped an open can of Surströmming right next to them; or rotted prawns? Would that constitute an offence?
- what if I pour iced water on them?
and the above (semi-serious) bits aside what recourse do you have if the idiots letting down tyres is caught in the act - are you meant to let them get on with it and not touch them? What's the situation if one of them decides the next course of action is to glue themselves to your car, can you (pardon the expression) pull them off?
If you're talking about people glued to the road I'm not suggesting that we should be allowed to drive over their extremities (as pleasing as that brief thought might be depending on situation!) but...
- if I drag someone off the road and their skin is left there is that assault?
- if I drag someone off before the glue has set, is that illegal?
onto more silly/juvenile things
- what if my dog used them as a lamppost?
- what if I dropped an open can of Surströmming right next to them; or rotted prawns? Would that constitute an offence?
- what if I pour iced water on them?
and the above (semi-serious) bits aside what recourse do you have if the idiots letting down tyres is caught in the act - are you meant to let them get on with it and not touch them? What's the situation if one of them decides the next course of action is to glue themselves to your car, can you (pardon the expression) pull them off?
A big issue people don't want to accept with these protests is that protesting is effectively protected under the Human Rights Act per case law.
While this isn't universal or unlimited protection, it could easily qualify as lawful excuse as a defence against obstruction laws. Hence why the police take time to clear protests; they are potentially legal, up to a point; The police should have both the training and external resources (lawyers, judges, government officials) available to determine when this point has been reached; An angry bloke stuck in london traffic doesn't.
Letting down tyres or gluing themselves to your car is a different set of prospects (Both would fall under criminal damage).
Generally your rights are limited to stopping immediate harm. While you can in theory use force to prevent crime, you need to be very confident crime is actually occuring, and the force needs to be proportional - Pulling someone away from your car when they try to let down the tyres or glue themselves to it is likely acceptable; hitting them with a baseball bat probably isn't...
Dragging someone out of the road I suspect is almost always going to be illegal; Even if the obstruction is an offence, it is a low level fine and can generally be dealt with by going a different way or waiting for police. With the exception of an ambulance or fire crew responding to a major incident I can't see it being reasonable to use force to avoid a delay... You are far more likely to get stuck because of an RTC; You can't expect 100% guarantee that roads will never be obstructed (First time I got caught out a 10 min bike ride became a 4 hour trip because of a major gas leak shut all the roads near my destination...)
A comparable discussion is should it be legal to smash a window of a car parked blocking a footway or cycletrack to release the handbrake and push it out of the way?
While this isn't universal or unlimited protection, it could easily qualify as lawful excuse as a defence against obstruction laws. Hence why the police take time to clear protests; they are potentially legal, up to a point; The police should have both the training and external resources (lawyers, judges, government officials) available to determine when this point has been reached; An angry bloke stuck in london traffic doesn't.
Letting down tyres or gluing themselves to your car is a different set of prospects (Both would fall under criminal damage).
Generally your rights are limited to stopping immediate harm. While you can in theory use force to prevent crime, you need to be very confident crime is actually occuring, and the force needs to be proportional - Pulling someone away from your car when they try to let down the tyres or glue themselves to it is likely acceptable; hitting them with a baseball bat probably isn't...
Dragging someone out of the road I suspect is almost always going to be illegal; Even if the obstruction is an offence, it is a low level fine and can generally be dealt with by going a different way or waiting for police. With the exception of an ambulance or fire crew responding to a major incident I can't see it being reasonable to use force to avoid a delay... You are far more likely to get stuck because of an RTC; You can't expect 100% guarantee that roads will never be obstructed (First time I got caught out a 10 min bike ride became a 4 hour trip because of a major gas leak shut all the roads near my destination...)
A comparable discussion is should it be legal to smash a window of a car parked blocking a footway or cycletrack to release the handbrake and push it out of the way?
qwerty360 said:
Dragging someone out of the road I suspect is almost always going to be illegal; Even if the obstruction is an offence,
I thought blocking the highway or access to, is an offence? If so, why is removing them (without ripping glued hands away) going to be illegal?For example those t
ts that get dragged out of the way, then sit back down in the road again...https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-dur...
Given that it's generally protected by law, the ability to intervene would need to be proportional to the harm caused. So if they're just delaying your day, no. If they're blocking an ambulance that is declared to be on a life or death emergency, then physical intervention would be proportional. It is disproportionate if you then use additional force subdue or harm them.
808 Estate said:
Am I allowed to turn my car around and sit there in neutral with my foot on the accelerator?
Love this idea If there was room to turn around then back up so the exhaust is right in their face . But I suspect you'd be arrested for assault by the police , probably the same for getting the nose of the car inches from them then just leaning on the horn.A fairly staid presentation of the legal situation but gives the legal background to answering the original question.
https://youtu.be/lYHPt6GpptE
https://youtu.be/lYHPt6GpptE
Evanivitch said:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/offences-dur...
Given that it's generally protected by law, the ability to intervene would need to be proportional to the harm caused. So if they're just delaying your day, no. If they're blocking an ambulance that is declared to be on a life or death emergency, then physical intervention would be proportional. It is disproportionate if you then use additional force subdue or harm them.
I have seen some discussion on LinkedIn about some of the tactics adopted being to shock in order to bring attention to the cause, otherwise there's no other way.Given that it's generally protected by law, the ability to intervene would need to be proportional to the harm caused. So if they're just delaying your day, no. If they're blocking an ambulance that is declared to be on a life or death emergency, then physical intervention would be proportional. It is disproportionate if you then use additional force subdue or harm them.
We've seen things like excrement being poured over statues (when it's not being pumped onto the beaches), emergency services being obstructed, buildings being daubed with graffiti and privately owned forecourt fuel pumps being vandalised.
Interesting that the Terrorism Act never seems to be cited, but looking at CPS guidance on what constitutes terrorism there are some fundamental considerations to be had when it comes to these blockades, the tactics being used and when the line of 'protest' is deemed to have been overstepped.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/terrorism
Turbobanana said:
Would dowsing them with tar & glue remover to dissolve the adhesive be acceptable, if sold on the basis of "I was helping them become unstuck"?
Or redirecting your washer jets: "I was just cleaning my windscreen, officer".
Or force them to listen to some Vogon poetry.
I think Vogon poetry is banned under the Geneva Convention.Or redirecting your washer jets: "I was just cleaning my windscreen, officer".
Or force them to listen to some Vogon poetry.
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