Parking Charge Notice - Quick Advice Please
Discussion
Hi Folks,
I have a parking charge notice from "Premier Park Ltd".
I don't dispute I used the carpark for the 3hrs 56 minutes they claim I did. They have a 3 hour free period - I wasn't aware of this.
We were sat in Starbucks on that retail park for that time - I have receipts to prove.
I have had a read of the guidance on MSE - https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-...
Reading it I imagine I have little room to to appeal this - I on the MSE templates it appears that my best option is to go for:
[i]
The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable
The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.
In my case, the £60 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of free parking. I was onsite at the Starbucks for the entire time. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.
[/i]
This feels, weak - but just curious what you all think. If the view is 'just pay it' so be it.
For what its worth - If I'd have seen signs telling me there was a limit, and there was a meter to buy more time, I'd happily have done it.
I have a parking charge notice from "Premier Park Ltd".
I don't dispute I used the carpark for the 3hrs 56 minutes they claim I did. They have a 3 hour free period - I wasn't aware of this.
We were sat in Starbucks on that retail park for that time - I have receipts to prove.
I have had a read of the guidance on MSE - https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-...
Reading it I imagine I have little room to to appeal this - I on the MSE templates it appears that my best option is to go for:
[i]
The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable
The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.
In my case, the £60 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of free parking. I was onsite at the Starbucks for the entire time. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.
[/i]
This feels, weak - but just curious what you all think. If the view is 'just pay it' so be it.
For what its worth - If I'd have seen signs telling me there was a limit, and there was a meter to buy more time, I'd happily have done it.
conanius said:
Hi Folks,
I have a parking charge notice from "Premier Park Ltd".
I don't dispute I used the carpark for the 3hrs 56 minutes they claim I did. They have a 3 hour free period - I wasn't aware of this.
We were sat in Starbucks on that retail park for that time - I have receipts to prove.
I have had a read of the guidance on MSE - https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-...
Reading it I imagine I have little room to to appeal this - I on the MSE templates it appears that my best option is to go for:
[i]
The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable
The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.
In my case, the £60 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of free parking. I was onsite at the Starbucks for the entire time. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.
[/i]
This feels, weak - but just curious what you all think. If the view is 'just pay it' so be it.
For what its worth - If I'd have seen signs telling me there was a limit, and there was a meter to buy more time, I'd happily have done it.
I'm just wondering how far you think £60 goes on the effort to chase miscreant parkers? It's not an unreasonable amount to charge to chase non payers for money surely?I have a parking charge notice from "Premier Park Ltd".
I don't dispute I used the carpark for the 3hrs 56 minutes they claim I did. They have a 3 hour free period - I wasn't aware of this.
We were sat in Starbucks on that retail park for that time - I have receipts to prove.
I have had a read of the guidance on MSE - https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-...
Reading it I imagine I have little room to to appeal this - I on the MSE templates it appears that my best option is to go for:
[i]
The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable
The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.
In my case, the £60 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of free parking. I was onsite at the Starbucks for the entire time. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.
[/i]
This feels, weak - but just curious what you all think. If the view is 'just pay it' so be it.
For what its worth - If I'd have seen signs telling me there was a limit, and there was a meter to buy more time, I'd happily have done it.
Where does £60 get you in a garage? 30 mins labour?
BertBert said:
I'm just wondering how far you think £60 goes on the effort to chase miscreant parkers? It's not an unreasonable amount to charge to chase non payers for money surely?
Where does £60 get you in a garage? 30 mins labour?
I agree the wording is funny. Where does £60 get you in a garage? 30 mins labour?
If you look on the template from MSE you’ll note I didn’t select the option that says the fine is disproportionate - which is another option - it’s the option that best states £60 for 50 minutes use of a free to use car park that has no pay and display option is unreasonable.
Firstly, Do NOT admit you were the driver - you are under no legal obligation to name the driver. In all correspondence, respond in all correspondence/email/appeals as the Registered Keeper only.
They will have to pursue the Registered Keeper under POFA. The most important thing is, did the invoice arrive within 14 days? You'll see on MSE there are about 3 or 4 other things you can request including authority from landowner. Most Private Parking Companies won't give up this information. Most companies don't comply with POFA, so they can't pursue the charge against the RK. Your appeal will probably go before POPLA and cost the PPC some money. Shame.
They will have to pursue the Registered Keeper under POFA. The most important thing is, did the invoice arrive within 14 days? You'll see on MSE there are about 3 or 4 other things you can request including authority from landowner. Most Private Parking Companies won't give up this information. Most companies don't comply with POFA, so they can't pursue the charge against the RK. Your appeal will probably go before POPLA and cost the PPC some money. Shame.
mattyprice4004 said:
Richtea1970 said:
You were sat in Starbucks for nearly 4 hours?
What’s so odd about that?When my office was being refurbished I’d regularly set up camp there for 4-6 hours
Anyway, I am following, as the outcome might be useful to know.
t in your lives.Terminator X said:
If it is a private company then they don't know who was driving and they aren't legally allowed to find out.
TX.
Isn't true anymore. I don't know specifics, but having recently been through this they can now just go for the RK. They give you opportunity to nominate a driver, but otherwise will settle on the keeper. TX.
Jimmy No Hands said:
Terminator X said:
If it is a private company then they don't know who was driving and they aren't legally allowed to find out.
TX.
Isn't true anymore. I don't know specifics, but having recently been through this they can now just go for the RK. They give you opportunity to nominate a driver, but otherwise will settle on the keeper. TX.
Challenging PCNs is now done as the Registered Keeper along the lines of these arguments:
1. The notice to keeper does not comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (hereon the POFA 2012)
2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge
3. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces
4. No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice
5. The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
Obviously this is a "general" argument, you would need to expand on them all, and your specific circumstances may vary.
1. Most PPCs fail to issue notice to keepers with 14 days required.
2. Never name yourself as the driver contesting - do so as the RK - "I am the RK of vehicle ABC123A and I wish to appeal.."
3. Lots of fails despite PPC arguments
4. They'll never produce this and always fail to name the landowner
5. a free or £1 car park and they want £100?
1. The notice to keeper does not comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (hereon the POFA 2012)
2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge
3. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces
4. No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice
5. The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
Obviously this is a "general" argument, you would need to expand on them all, and your specific circumstances may vary.
1. Most PPCs fail to issue notice to keepers with 14 days required.
2. Never name yourself as the driver contesting - do so as the RK - "I am the RK of vehicle ABC123A and I wish to appeal.."
3. Lots of fails despite PPC arguments
4. They'll never produce this and always fail to name the landowner
5. a free or £1 car park and they want £100?
Given the rise in WFH and the related reductions in office space offered by some employers, it's becoming less unusual to hear of people setting up shop in places that happen to offer free WiFi, so whilst it might still seem odd to some people that the OP was in Starbucks for 4 hours, it's the sort of thing that's becoming less unusual and which places llike this may need to start taking into consideration when setting up things like car parking arrangements...
We successfully appealed a similar case a few years ago - parked in a multi-business leisure facility to make use of the cinema, then decided to pop next door to the 10 pin bowling for a few games and some food, so ended up parked for around 4 hours as well without realising there was a 3 hour limit. After the request for payment showed up, out appeal was simply that we'd remained customers of businesses in the facility the whole time, and here's copies of our receipts with the timestamps highlighted to show this. Appeal accepted, requests for payment withdrawn, jobs a good'un.
So OP, try the appeal on these grounds. Yes, technically you were still in breach of the T&Cs as we were, however it's reasonable to assume that the time limit is there to ensure genuine customers have a chance to find parking, and that as a genuine customer you had as much moral right to leave your vehicle parked there for 4 hours as two different customers would have had to park in the same space for 2 hours each - spirit Vs letter of the law, as it were. Provided you can show continued use of the business over those 4 hours (I e. receipts/entries on your bank statement for drinks/food purchased at intervals throughout, not just one for a couple of coffees right at the start of the 4 hour stint), then that's an entirely reasonable starting position on which to appeal IMO.
We successfully appealed a similar case a few years ago - parked in a multi-business leisure facility to make use of the cinema, then decided to pop next door to the 10 pin bowling for a few games and some food, so ended up parked for around 4 hours as well without realising there was a 3 hour limit. After the request for payment showed up, out appeal was simply that we'd remained customers of businesses in the facility the whole time, and here's copies of our receipts with the timestamps highlighted to show this. Appeal accepted, requests for payment withdrawn, jobs a good'un.
So OP, try the appeal on these grounds. Yes, technically you were still in breach of the T&Cs as we were, however it's reasonable to assume that the time limit is there to ensure genuine customers have a chance to find parking, and that as a genuine customer you had as much moral right to leave your vehicle parked there for 4 hours as two different customers would have had to park in the same space for 2 hours each - spirit Vs letter of the law, as it were. Provided you can show continued use of the business over those 4 hours (I e. receipts/entries on your bank statement for drinks/food purchased at intervals throughout, not just one for a couple of coffees right at the start of the 4 hour stint), then that's an entirely reasonable starting position on which to appeal IMO.
conanius said:
Hi Folks,
I have a parking charge notice from "Premier Park Ltd".
I don't dispute I used the carpark for the 3hrs 56 minutes they claim I did. They have a 3 hour free period - I wasn't aware of this.
We were sat in Starbucks on that retail park for that time - I have receipts to prove.
I have had a read of the guidance on MSE - https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-...
Reading it I imagine I have little room to to appeal this - I on the MSE templates it appears that my best option is to go for:
[i]
The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable
The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.
In my case, the £60 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of free parking. I was onsite at the Starbucks for the entire time. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.
[/i]
This feels, weak - but just curious what you all think. If the view is 'just pay it' so be it.
For what its worth - If I'd have seen signs telling me there was a limit, and there was a meter to buy more time, I'd happily have done it.
Don't got down the charge is not commercially justifiable, as Beavis Vs Parking Eye the Supreme Court already set a precedent for the costs and £60 is not that high.I have a parking charge notice from "Premier Park Ltd".
I don't dispute I used the carpark for the 3hrs 56 minutes they claim I did. They have a 3 hour free period - I wasn't aware of this.
We were sat in Starbucks on that retail park for that time - I have receipts to prove.
I have had a read of the guidance on MSE - https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-...
Reading it I imagine I have little room to to appeal this - I on the MSE templates it appears that my best option is to go for:
[i]
The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable
The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.
In my case, the £60 charge you are asking for far exceeds the cost to the landowner of free parking. I was onsite at the Starbucks for the entire time. I therefore feel the charge you have asked for is excessive.
[/i]
This feels, weak - but just curious what you all think. If the view is 'just pay it' so be it.
For what its worth - If I'd have seen signs telling me there was a limit, and there was a meter to buy more time, I'd happily have done it.
As an aside the government have drafted changes to PPC to cap them at £50 but that has gone on the back burner now!
You can't park for that long in these places unless they have a facility, they enter your reg now.
I would still use the MSE template letters and refuse to pay, they may well not have the correct landowner authority.
vikingaero said:
Challenging PCNs is now done as the Registered Keeper along the lines of these arguments:
5. The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
I would argue that point 5 is a tough one barry beavis stayed 2hr 45 mins from memory in a free car park and as PE only got revenue from overstayers the court rules their charge to Beavis was not a fine and reasonable, the original charge in that case was £100 increasing to £170, so the GPEL argument now only applies if you stay less than the grace period or a private carpark with a tariff such as pay by hour, in my mind.5. The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
The Beavis case is the one all PPC now hang their hat on, but in the OP case I would say it sets a pretty scary precendent!
POPLA are a waste of space.
Our local Indian Restaurant has its own car park monitored by a parking company.
When you go in, you enter your reg on a keypad.
I went to collect our weekly usual and must have forgot to enter my details for once so received a £100 fine.
Appealed and enclosed a copy receipt. The restaurant said don’t pay it and they own the car park.
POPLA rejected my appeal. The parking company ignored the restaurant’s request to drop it.
The restaurant have said they’ll pay if it goes further.
Our local Indian Restaurant has its own car park monitored by a parking company.
When you go in, you enter your reg on a keypad.
I went to collect our weekly usual and must have forgot to enter my details for once so received a £100 fine.
Appealed and enclosed a copy receipt. The restaurant said don’t pay it and they own the car park.
POPLA rejected my appeal. The parking company ignored the restaurant’s request to drop it.
The restaurant have said they’ll pay if it goes further.
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