Sale of deceased persons car before probate

[PaulD86]

I'm wondering if anyone can help answer the question of whether it is possible for the executor of an estate to sell a car owned by the deceased person prior to probate being granted?

The will has a sole beneficiary with no interest in owning the vehicle, and the will executor does not wish to wait 6 months or so for probate to be granted before selling the car. The executor wishes to sell the car and add the proceeds of the sale to the deceased estate.

This car/estate are in Scotland, in case the law is different here.

[vonhosen]

I've done it in England (after confirming with solicitor). Admittedly low value car, but wanted it off road so insurance & VEL refunds could be added into estate cash.

[PaulD86]

The value of the car would be in the region of £5,000. Also, to correct my own mistake, in Scotland it is "confirmation" and not probate which is issued by the court.

From a logical and practical perspective I'd like to think it would be allowed, but the law isn't always as practical as we may like.

[Doofus]

My mum gave her car to me just before she died. Although I had to write her signature on the V5 Transfer of Ownership slip for her because she was wasn't dead.

I then sold the car and gave my sister half the money.

[Paul Dishman]

I was joint executor of my mother’s estate and sold her car before obtaining probate as the VED and insurance were coming up for renewal.
I offered it to family members first, then sold it to a dealer as I didn’t want the aggravation of dealing with members of the general public. It went for just under £3000, so not a fortune.
All you need to do is get a receipt so you can keep track of the money.

[olo tation]

I did the same. Sold it to a dealer who just wanted to see evidence that I was an executor I think.

We buy any car have a faq on what they want to see in this situation.

[BertBert]

Yes indeed, rightly or wrongly I turned assets into cash before I got probate when my father passed away. I kept detailed records for audit, but who on earth is going to come after you anyway if you've done wrong?

[sociopath]

Yep, did it with my mums car.

Unless the will explicitly states what should happen with the car, the executor is just converting assets in the estate to cash.

HMRC only care about the value.

[Pica-Pica]

As others have said, sell it, keep receipt, and copy of valuations of similar cars At that sale date.

[Actual]

If there is no IHT (Inheritance Tax) to pay and the estate is well within the threshold then using the online probate there are effectively only 2 figures to provide for probate so you don't need to be particularly meticulous about any amounts as they are not scrutinised in any way.

For the online probate you only need to to provide
Gross value for the estate for inheritance tax in £
Net value for the estate for inheritance tax in £
Net qualifying value in £
Gross value for probate in £
Net value for probate in £

Some of those values could be the same amount.

You do not need to provide evidence or your working out.

If you submit online probate and it all stacks up then probate will be granted in 8 weeks.

The IHT threshold NRB (Nil Rate Band) is £325,000 and if the deceased leaves the family home to their children then there is an extra RNRB (Residence Nil Rate Band) of £175K and if the deceased was married and inherited from their spouse who predeceased then the spouse NRB and RNRB is also counted and so the total IHT threshold is £1M before any IHT is due.

If the value of the estate is over the threshold by even £1 then there is IHT to pay and then the executor DOES need to be meticulous about the amounts for EVERYTHING because for every £1 of the value of the estate over the threshold there is IHT to pay of 40p and the IHT needs to be paid BEFORE probate is granted. As you can't do much with the estate until probate is granted this can lead to a chicken and egg situation where you can't get probate becuase you can't dispose of assets to pay the IHT to get probate...

[PaulD86]

Thanks for the responses guys.

[BertBert]

Actual said:

If the value of the estate is over the threshold by even £1 then there is IHT to pay and then the executor DOES need to be meticulous about the amounts for EVERYTHING because for every £1 of the value of the estate over the threshold there is IHT to pay of 40p and the IHT needs to be paid BEFORE probate is granted. As you can't do much with the estate until probate is granted this can lead to a chicken and egg situation where you can't get probate becuase you can't dispose of assets to pay the IHT to get probate...

Presumably it also creates the problem of valuation. A very good way of valuing assets is to sell them. Getting off the original question a bit, but how is an estate valued and so that HMRC are happy with the value? What's a house worth in a falling market?

[codenamecueball]

BertBert said:

Presumably it also creates the problem of valuation. A very good way of valuing assets is to sell them. Getting off the original question a bit, but how is an estate valued and so that HMRC are happy with the value? What's a house worth in a falling market?

We had car valued at WBAC value shortly after death, then sold after a few months when market went bonkers as we couldn't drive it. HMRC only interested in value at date of death.

[Far Cough]

OP - if you phone the insurance company , many of them will add you to the policy for 1 month in order to assist with sale so you can drive to places or test drives etc.

Sold my late father's car before probate and less that a month after his death . He was only doing 300 miles a year anyway so it was becoming a nuisance anyhow. WBAC could not have been more helpful and gave full price which went direct into my mother's account.

[siremoon]

codenamecueball said:

We had car valued at WBAC value shortly after death, then sold after a few months when market went bonkers as we couldn't drive it. HMRC only interested in value at date of death.

AIUI HMRC are only interested in the value at the date of death for IHT purposes but there could be a tax liability on the beneficiaries if an estate asset appreciates in value or generates a gain (eg dividends or interest) in the period between date of death and the distribution to beneficiaries.

[Bennet]

BertBert said:

Yes indeed, rightly or wrongly I turned assets into cash before I got probate when my father passed away. I kept detailed records for audit, but who on earth is going to come after you anyway if you've done wrong?

That's right. I don't know if I followed the letter of the law correctly in every way when my father passed away, but since my mother was the only beneficiary and there are no trust issues between us, there was never any prospect of anyone challenging anything, so I made everything as easy as possible without worrying too much. (Also, there was no inheritance tax to pay.)

[Pinkie15]

siremoon said:

codenamecueball said:

We had car valued at WBAC value shortly after death, then sold after a few months when market went bonkers as we couldn't drive it. HMRC only interested in value at date of death.

AIUI HMRC are only interested in the value at the date of death for IHT purposes but there could be a tax liability on the beneficiaries if an estate asset appreciates in value or generates a gain (eg dividends or interest) in the period between date of death and the distribution to beneficiaries.

Yep, wife & her brother had CGT to pay after mil's house sold as it had increased a fair whack from probate estimation to sale. Had to be paid within 60 days of sale date.


If I recall there's estimation associated with IHT, actual value not known until assets are sold. I guess if you paid on a value if X, but falling housing market means actual value was X-Y, then I guess you're due a refund from HMRC.

[MustangGT]

Pinkie15 said:

If I recall there's estimation associated with IHT, actual value not known until assets are sold. I guess if you paid on a value if X, but falling housing market means actual value was X-Y, then I guess you're due a refund from HMRC.

No, because you had not paid the tax in the first place.

[Pro Bono]

PaulD86 said:

I'm wondering if anyone can help answer the question of whether it is possible for the executor of an estate to sell a car owned by the deceased person prior to probate being granted?

In purely legal terms the answer is yes. An executor's authority to deal with items in the estate derives from the Will, not the Grant of Probate.

In practice, of course, the buyer of a major asset, such as a house, will insist on seeing the Grant, as there's always a risk that the Will is invalid, but most car dealers probably wouldn't even know what probate is. In the numerous estates I've dealt with there's never been a problem selling a car without probate.

It'd be interesting to know whether the upmarket dealers would take a different view - for example if you were selling a rare Ferrari at £500k I'd expect the legalities to be a bit more important than for a Toyota at £5k.

[911hope]

Pro Bono said:

In purely legal terms the answer is yes. An executor's authority to deal with items in the estate derives from the Will, not the Grant of Probate.

In practice, of course, the buyer of a major asset, such as a house, will insist on seeing the Grant, as there's always a risk that the Will is invalid, but most car dealers probably wouldn't even know what probate is. In the numerous estates I've dealt with there's never been a problem selling a car without probate.

It'd be interesting to know whether the upmarket dealers would take a different view - for example if you were selling a rare Ferrari at £500k I'd expect the legalities to be a bit more important than for a Toyota at £5k.

A quick investigation on gov.uk website regarding probate, suggests probate IS required to put any assets on the market.

So perhaps best not to take legal advice from an internet stranger and look it up yourself, or get advice from a known qualified person.