Leaky Bottom Pipe
Discussion
Got a letter through my door a few week ago from the water company after the big freeze telling me I had a leak on my property and they would send someone out to detect and then give me a few weeks to get it repaired. Had no idea all they said was 'check under the sub floor', the whole property is built on over 3ft of concrete.
So a few days later they sent a bloke out to listen and to be fair you could hear a hiss and he reckoned there was a litre every 3 seconds coming out of the water pipe coming onto my property. He said they don't fix it but after 30 days they would force entry and fix it and then bill me several times the cost of getting it fixed myself ( not sure how true that is without a warrant signed by a judge)
So I contact my home insurance provider (who I won't name) and they told me 'yes it's all covered sir' we will send someone out and leak and detect is covered up to £5000. They sent out a young guy who spent 3 hours going along 10 feet of pipe and said that the leak is coming from a pipe 1ft from the point of entry to the stopcock which is under my kitchen cupboards and behind the kick board. There is a hiss coming from a straight connector but there is zero moisture below it. I would expect there to be a puddle. The guy said 'water will find it's way'
So the insurance have told me that they will cover the cost of removing part of the kitchen cupboards, granite tops etc and digging down to find the leaking replacing it. However fixing the leak itself isn't cover by my insurance and need to get a plumber, is this normal?
I'm not seeing any water after a week from pipe going through a solid floor. Is it possible it could be just the straight connector but the contractor is doing the work knowing it is being aid for by the insurer?
Also the guy from the detect company said he could fix the leak privately but not tell the insurance company he was doing it? So in the event that it leaks again from the same point he would be liable and not the home insurer.
So a few days later they sent a bloke out to listen and to be fair you could hear a hiss and he reckoned there was a litre every 3 seconds coming out of the water pipe coming onto my property. He said they don't fix it but after 30 days they would force entry and fix it and then bill me several times the cost of getting it fixed myself ( not sure how true that is without a warrant signed by a judge)
So I contact my home insurance provider (who I won't name) and they told me 'yes it's all covered sir' we will send someone out and leak and detect is covered up to £5000. They sent out a young guy who spent 3 hours going along 10 feet of pipe and said that the leak is coming from a pipe 1ft from the point of entry to the stopcock which is under my kitchen cupboards and behind the kick board. There is a hiss coming from a straight connector but there is zero moisture below it. I would expect there to be a puddle. The guy said 'water will find it's way'
So the insurance have told me that they will cover the cost of removing part of the kitchen cupboards, granite tops etc and digging down to find the leaking replacing it. However fixing the leak itself isn't cover by my insurance and need to get a plumber, is this normal?
I'm not seeing any water after a week from pipe going through a solid floor. Is it possible it could be just the straight connector but the contractor is doing the work knowing it is being aid for by the insurer?
Also the guy from the detect company said he could fix the leak privately but not tell the insurance company he was doing it? So in the event that it leaks again from the same point he would be liable and not the home insurer.
Insurers tend to get a little confused...although your explanation isn't 100% clear.
Is the leak between the external stop tap/meter in the footpath and your internal stoptap under the sink, or after the internal stoptap under the sink, somewhere in the property?
If it's the first scenario, it's damage to your "underground services". You will have cover for this, but only if caused by an insured loss (such as ground movement, tree roots, someone putting a spade through it). The insurer should be repairing the leak as well, including all work needed to access and re-instate. There typically isn't a limit on this. But...most likely, the pipe is old and has failed by wear and tear/age - but the insurer cannot prove this without accessing so most give the benefit of doubt and proceed with investigations (and once they access, they have to put back). If it's clearly wear and tear/old age, then they may make you pay for the pipe repair.
The only issue if this is the case, and your insurers proceeding as they are is there is almost certainly an easier way to resolve the issue. A leak detection company will be focused on the leak - if the insurer correctly appointed an underground water pipe specialist, you can probably make a new connection into the property, avoiding the leaking section - that can then be capped off and the new connection would replace the old. Much simpler and probably doesn't need your kitchen out of action for a couple days. A small excavation outside your kitchen to pick up the pipe, a new connection (either below ground level up into the kitchen) or via an insuduct box, and your issue is resolved in a morning.
If it's the second scenario (after the internal stop tap), then your insurers are proceeding in the right way. You have Trace and Access cover which gives you up to £5k to trace and access the leak to plumbing (after internal stop tap = plumbing, not underground services), including making good. You will need to pay for the actual repair (normally about £100 to cut the damaged piece out). See other thread for more details as linked above.
Hope this is useful
Is the leak between the external stop tap/meter in the footpath and your internal stoptap under the sink, or after the internal stoptap under the sink, somewhere in the property?
If it's the first scenario, it's damage to your "underground services". You will have cover for this, but only if caused by an insured loss (such as ground movement, tree roots, someone putting a spade through it). The insurer should be repairing the leak as well, including all work needed to access and re-instate. There typically isn't a limit on this. But...most likely, the pipe is old and has failed by wear and tear/age - but the insurer cannot prove this without accessing so most give the benefit of doubt and proceed with investigations (and once they access, they have to put back). If it's clearly wear and tear/old age, then they may make you pay for the pipe repair.
The only issue if this is the case, and your insurers proceeding as they are is there is almost certainly an easier way to resolve the issue. A leak detection company will be focused on the leak - if the insurer correctly appointed an underground water pipe specialist, you can probably make a new connection into the property, avoiding the leaking section - that can then be capped off and the new connection would replace the old. Much simpler and probably doesn't need your kitchen out of action for a couple days. A small excavation outside your kitchen to pick up the pipe, a new connection (either below ground level up into the kitchen) or via an insuduct box, and your issue is resolved in a morning.
If it's the second scenario (after the internal stop tap), then your insurers are proceeding in the right way. You have Trace and Access cover which gives you up to £5k to trace and access the leak to plumbing (after internal stop tap = plumbing, not underground services), including making good. You will need to pay for the actual repair (normally about £100 to cut the damaged piece out). See other thread for more details as linked above.
Hope this is useful
sutoka said:
So the insurance have told me that they will cover the cost of removing part of the kitchen cupboards, granite tops etc and digging down to find the leaking replacing it. However fixing the leak itself isn't cover by my insurance and need to get a plumber, is this normal?
You will be covered for damage caused by escape of water, hence stripping out the kitchen and digging etc etc, but your insurance does not cover repairing household defects, so they won't fix the leaky pipe. It's always been this way but most homeowners don't quite understand this So two weeks on from asking them to commence work I'm still waiting for the contractor to come out. I have made them aware several times that the water company has visited the property twice including yesterday asking why the leak has not been fixed.
The well known insurer is blaming the contracting, the contractor says they didn't hear anything then said they were behind schedule and I still have a leak under my floor. A complete shambles, if I was with NFU Mutual they whole thing would have been sorted in 2-3 days not three bloody weeks and counting.
I have given them until tomorrow and failing that I'll get the water company to commence work and the insurer will be paying 2 - 3 times the amount.
The well known insurer is blaming the contracting, the contractor says they didn't hear anything then said they were behind schedule and I still have a leak under my floor. A complete shambles, if I was with NFU Mutual they whole thing would have been sorted in 2-3 days not three bloody weeks and counting.
I have given them until tomorrow and failing that I'll get the water company to commence work and the insurer will be paying 2 - 3 times the amount.
sutoka said:
So two weeks on from asking them to commence work I'm still waiting for the contractor to come out. I have made them aware several times that the water company has visited the property twice including yesterday asking why the leak has not been fixed.
The well known insurer is blaming the contracting, the contractor says they didn't hear anything then said they were behind schedule and I still have a leak under my floor. A complete shambles, if I was with NFU Mutual they whole thing would have been sorted in 2-3 days not three bloody weeks and counting.
I have given them until tomorrow and failing that I'll get the water company to commence work and the insurer will be paying 2 - 3 times the amount.
Typical for many at the moment - tough times in the industry.The well known insurer is blaming the contracting, the contractor says they didn't hear anything then said they were behind schedule and I still have a leak under my floor. A complete shambles, if I was with NFU Mutual they whole thing would have been sorted in 2-3 days not three bloody weeks and counting.
I have given them until tomorrow and failing that I'll get the water company to commence work and the insurer will be paying 2 - 3 times the amount.
It still boils down to where the leak is though - see my earlier note. If it's between the two stop taps, then it's the supply...get them to appoint their underground services specialist. Will be sorted in a couple days.
guitarcarfanatic said:
sutoka said:
So two weeks on from asking them to commence work I'm still waiting for the contractor to come out. I have made them aware several times that the water company has visited the property twice including yesterday asking why the leak has not been fixed.
The well known insurer is blaming the contracting, the contractor says they didn't hear anything then said they were behind schedule and I still have a leak under my floor. A complete shambles, if I was with NFU Mutual they whole thing would have been sorted in 2-3 days not three bloody weeks and counting.
I have given them until tomorrow and failing that I'll get the water company to commence work and the insurer will be paying 2 - 3 times the amount.
Typical for many at the moment - tough times in the industry.The well known insurer is blaming the contracting, the contractor says they didn't hear anything then said they were behind schedule and I still have a leak under my floor. A complete shambles, if I was with NFU Mutual they whole thing would have been sorted in 2-3 days not three bloody weeks and counting.
I have given them until tomorrow and failing that I'll get the water company to commence work and the insurer will be paying 2 - 3 times the amount.
It still boils down to where the leak is though - see my earlier note. If it's between the two stop taps, then it's the supply...get them to appoint their underground services specialist. Will be sorted in a couple days.
Honestly never had an insurance claim dragged out so much, nearly four weeks and with my renewal coming up I'm not sure I'll be using them again. Thankfully I've a relative who's a plumber who said he could fix the leaking pipe for a drink and available.
Told the insurer from the start I didn't want this dragged out with dribs and drabs and that's exactly how its turned out.
Edited by sutoka on Thursday 16th February 05:29
sutoka said:
Stuff...
Thankfully I've a relative who's a plumber who said he could fix the leaking pipe for a drink and available.
More stuff..
Get your relly round. There should be plenty of water for him to drink available even after he's fixed the leak! Thankfully I've a relative who's a plumber who said he could fix the leaking pipe for a drink and available.
More stuff..
Edited by sutoka on Thursday 16th February 05:29
sutoka said:
It's 2ft of solid cement so you would expect the water to have surfaced by now...
I think it's more likely that the water will wash away under the solid cement rather than come up. Our drive collapsed a couple of years back owing to an unnoticed leak from the water main. It had washed out a load of soil (in some places a couple of feet deep) and we were driving just on the concrete. It collapsed when I was using our fork lift truck to move some pallets of firewood to one of the big sheds at the end of the garden. Needed a digger to get the forklift out.In one sense I was glad that it happened as - had it carried on - it could have ended up washing the soil out from under the foundations of the house.
Got a phone call yesterday morning from the track and trace team, they have been I touch with another contractor who will take out part of the kitchen and possibly dig the hole. They said they would be in contact by close yesterday to arrange a visit. Got to 4.30 so I phoned the contractor and the lady on reception had no idea, no notes, info or anything. Nobody available to speak too etc complete numpty
So I phoned track and trace who by that time were closed, so I phone the insurer telling them this is getting ridiculous and their is a clear lack of communication between the parties and I want it sorted. Next came the classic patronising line "we aren't an emergency service sir" and "we allow 5 days for a response from the contracted parties". Now this is week four of this nonsense so I made it clear I was happy and will phone again tomorrow.
They seem to think it's normal to wait four weeks for someone to come out, a friend had the same issue and the well known mutual farming insurance had it sorted in 4 days.
So I phoned track and trace who by that time were closed, so I phone the insurer telling them this is getting ridiculous and their is a clear lack of communication between the parties and I want it sorted. Next came the classic patronising line "we aren't an emergency service sir" and "we allow 5 days for a response from the contracted parties". Now this is week four of this nonsense so I made it clear I was happy and will phone again tomorrow.
They seem to think it's normal to wait four weeks for someone to come out, a friend had the same issue and the well known mutual farming insurance had it sorted in 4 days.
sutoka said:
They seem to think it's normal to wait four weeks for someone to come out, a friend had the same issue and the well known mutual farming insurance had it sorted in 4 days.
For water leaks like this, you should have had someone out in 2 days (there is no part of our business - which is insurance property claims - where such lax timescales would be accepted). It does seem like your insurer is in a bit of a pickle. And I think they have appointed the wrong type of specialist (trace and access, rather than underground services) based on what you have said...but lets see.Short Grain said:
Can't really help OP, but I still snigger like a little schoolboy when I see the thread title 
Hope you get it sorted!
Guy coming out today to remove part of the Kitchen. But instead of arranging it so that the he removes cupboards, over/hob and granite top this morning and then have the other contractor dig the hole this afternoon so I can have my plumber fix it later today. They have to notify the insurance who will have 5 days under the insurance ombudsman rules to get the hole diggers out. After that when my plumber fixes the leak they have another 5 days to send the drying team and hole fillers out. Then 5 days for the guy to come and fit the Kitchen back in.Hope you get it sorted!
Of course I have to find all this out myself because the insurance company have been so useless. When I questioned why everything wasn't properly co-ordinated I got "we aren't an emergency service sir" and "That not how it works sir"
I've had colleagues that are with the farming insurance and the very direct insurance company who have had similar issues sorted within 2-4 days not 4 bloody weeks.
Edited by sutoka on Monday 20th February 07:56
sutoka said:
Guy coming out today to remove part of the Kitchen. But instead of arranging it so that the he removes cupboards, over/hob and granite top this morning and then have the other contractor dig the hole this afternoon so I can have my plumber fix it later today. They have to notify the insurance who will have 5 days under the insurance ombudsman rules to get the hole diggers out. After that when my plumber fixes the leak they have another 5 days to send the drying team and hole fillers out. Then 5 days for the guy to come and fit the Kitchen back in.
Of course I have to find all this out myself because the insurance company have been so useless. When I questioned why everything wasn't properly co-ordinated I got "we aren't an emergency service sir" and "That not how it works sir"
I've had colleagues that are with the farming insurance and the very direct insurance company who have had similar issues sorted within 2-4 days not 4 bloody weeks.
With 13+ years in insurance claims, specailising in property (exactly this), this is a load of rubbish. Omsbudsman rules of 5 days?! Tosh!Of course I have to find all this out myself because the insurance company have been so useless. When I questioned why everything wasn't properly co-ordinated I got "we aren't an emergency service sir" and "That not how it works sir"
I've had colleagues that are with the farming insurance and the very direct insurance company who have had similar issues sorted within 2-4 days not 4 bloody weeks.
Edited by sutoka on Monday 20th February 07:56
Unfortunately, it's been a race to the bottom in claims for some time with insurers pushing suppliers to compartmentalise and hit SLA's. Some suppliers embrace this is they can make so much more money out of claims. Most Insuers are now moving out the other side of this, recognising it costs them so much more. Unfortunately, you seem to be with one of the ones that hasn't woken up yet.
guitarcarfanatic said:
sutoka said:
Guy coming out today to remove part of the Kitchen. But instead of arranging it so that the he removes cupboards, over/hob and granite top this morning and then have the other contractor dig the hole this afternoon so I can have my plumber fix it later today. They have to notify the insurance who will have 5 days under the insurance ombudsman rules to get the hole diggers out. After that when my plumber fixes the leak they have another 5 days to send the drying team and hole fillers out. Then 5 days for the guy to come and fit the Kitchen back in.
Of course I have to find all this out myself because the insurance company have been so useless. When I questioned why everything wasn't properly co-ordinated I got "we aren't an emergency service sir" and "That not how it works sir"
I've had colleagues that are with the farming insurance and the very direct insurance company who have had similar issues sorted within 2-4 days not 4 bloody weeks.
With 13+ years in insurance claims, specailising in property (exactly this), this is a load of rubbish. Omsbudsman rules of 5 days?! Tosh!Of course I have to find all this out myself because the insurance company have been so useless. When I questioned why everything wasn't properly co-ordinated I got "we aren't an emergency service sir" and "That not how it works sir"
I've had colleagues that are with the farming insurance and the very direct insurance company who have had similar issues sorted within 2-4 days not 4 bloody weeks.
Edited by sutoka on Monday 20th February 07:56
Unfortunately, it's been a race to the bottom in claims for some time with insurers pushing suppliers to compartmentalise and hit SLA's. Some suppliers embrace this is they can make so much more money out of claims. Most Insuers are now moving out the other side of this, recognising it costs them so much more. Unfortunately, you seem to be with one of the ones that hasn't woken up yet.
Guy came yesterday removed the kitchen units, another guy this morning digging it up and repairing the pipe privately which they said shouldn't be more than £50. The contractor said the insurer are the worst they've dealt with in terms of sending them details and info and phoning them. Said they usually respond within 48 hours to calls but said he noticed this one had gone through on 26th January but they weren't notified until the 4th Feb and then it took 9 days for them to respond to their track and trace report.
Hopefully it gets sorted by the end of this week and my renewal is coming up in March and I know who I won't be using again.
This just gets better and better. Insurance sent a guy out was a Boschhammer to dig out the floor around the stop cock. So the trace report said it was 100% a foot to the left of were the pipe came out of the ground. I ask insurance are they sure before they start digging 'yes" So he digs 1ft and no leak, 2ft no leak, 3ft no leak. I said again "are you still sure it's in the kitchen ", "yes wouldn't be digging if I wasn't" came the answer.
So now part of my kitchen floor is looking like a mini Somme and another cabinet is removed and he digs another 2 ft to the wall, still no leak detected in the copper pipe and no water, claims "it's just under that wall" and he calls it a day.
So next day the water company turn up and can't believe they didn't check outside, he's still convinced it's just outside the front door and they say they will come back on Monday and lift a few paving slabs and dig a hole just outside the door. If it's at the front door they will fix it free of charge and if they don't find it they'll fit a stopcock to tell for certain if it's outside in the garden or inside.
If it's inside having a hole inside an a hole outside I'll probably just get a new section of pipe through the 10ft or so rather than dig up my hallway and under the stairs.
Honestly if it turns out the leak was outside all along then the trace team and insurer will be getting an earful
So now part of my kitchen floor is looking like a mini Somme and another cabinet is removed and he digs another 2 ft to the wall, still no leak detected in the copper pipe and no water, claims "it's just under that wall" and he calls it a day.
So next day the water company turn up and can't believe they didn't check outside, he's still convinced it's just outside the front door and they say they will come back on Monday and lift a few paving slabs and dig a hole just outside the door. If it's at the front door they will fix it free of charge and if they don't find it they'll fit a stopcock to tell for certain if it's outside in the garden or inside.
If it's inside having a hole inside an a hole outside I'll probably just get a new section of pipe through the 10ft or so rather than dig up my hallway and under the stairs.
Honestly if it turns out the leak was outside all along then the trace team and insurer will be getting an earful
sutoka said:
This just gets better and better. Insurance sent a guy out was a Boschhammer to dig out the floor around the stop cock. So the trace report said it was 100% a foot to the left of were the pipe came out of the ground. I ask insurance are they sure before they start digging 'yes" So he digs 1ft and no leak, 2ft no leak, 3ft no leak. I said again "are you still sure it's in the kitchen ", "yes wouldn't be digging if I wasn't" came the answer.
So now part of my kitchen floor is looking like a mini Somme and another cabinet is removed and he digs another 2 ft to the wall, still no leak detected in the copper pipe and no water, claims "it's just under that wall" and he calls it a day.
So next day the water company turn up and can't believe they didn't check outside, he's still convinced it's just outside the front door and they say they will come back on Monday and lift a few paving slabs and dig a hole just outside the door. If it's at the front door they will fix it free of charge and if they don't find it they'll fit a stopcock to tell for certain if it's outside in the garden or inside.
If it's inside having a hole inside an a hole outside I'll probably just get a new section of pipe through the 10ft or so rather than dig up my hallway and under the stairs.
Honestly if it turns out the leak was outside all along then the trace team and insurer will be getting an earful
Sorry to hear this, I did call this earlier as suspected from what you described it would be to the water supply (as opposed to plumbing). Thankfully the water company are playing ball. And making a new connection is the best was to resolve - it’s just a sensible approach.So now part of my kitchen floor is looking like a mini Somme and another cabinet is removed and he digs another 2 ft to the wall, still no leak detected in the copper pipe and no water, claims "it's just under that wall" and he calls it a day.
So next day the water company turn up and can't believe they didn't check outside, he's still convinced it's just outside the front door and they say they will come back on Monday and lift a few paving slabs and dig a hole just outside the door. If it's at the front door they will fix it free of charge and if they don't find it they'll fit a stopcock to tell for certain if it's outside in the garden or inside.
If it's inside having a hole inside an a hole outside I'll probably just get a new section of pipe through the 10ft or so rather than dig up my hallway and under the stairs.
Honestly if it turns out the leak was outside all along then the trace team and insurer will be getting an earful
I spent about 8 years of my career specialising in water and drainage insurance claims. We used to always get reports about leaks below kitchens etc and the solution was always to make a new connection and cap off the old. Saves thousands in removing kitchens/floors and is all done and dusted in a few hours work.
Good luck and hopefully all on track to be resolved.
guitarcarfanatic said:
sutoka said:
This just gets better and better. Insurance sent a guy out was a Boschhammer to dig out the floor around the stop cock. So the trace report said it was 100% a foot to the left of were the pipe came out of the ground. I ask insurance are they sure before they start digging 'yes" So he digs 1ft and no leak, 2ft no leak, 3ft no leak. I said again "are you still sure it's in the kitchen ", "yes wouldn't be digging if I wasn't" came the answer.
So now part of my kitchen floor is looking like a mini Somme and another cabinet is removed and he digs another 2 ft to the wall, still no leak detected in the copper pipe and no water, claims "it's just under that wall" and he calls it a day.
So next day the water company turn up and can't believe they didn't check outside, he's still convinced it's just outside the front door and they say they will come back on Monday and lift a few paving slabs and dig a hole just outside the door. If it's at the front door they will fix it free of charge and if they don't find it they'll fit a stopcock to tell for certain if it's outside in the garden or inside.
If it's inside having a hole inside an a hole outside I'll probably just get a new section of pipe through the 10ft or so rather than dig up my hallway and under the stairs.
Honestly if it turns out the leak was outside all along then the trace team and insurer will be getting an earful
Sorry to hear this, I did call this earlier as suspected from what you described it would be to the water supply (as opposed to plumbing). Thankfully the water company are playing ball. And making a new connection is the best was to resolve - it’s just a sensible approach.So now part of my kitchen floor is looking like a mini Somme and another cabinet is removed and he digs another 2 ft to the wall, still no leak detected in the copper pipe and no water, claims "it's just under that wall" and he calls it a day.
So next day the water company turn up and can't believe they didn't check outside, he's still convinced it's just outside the front door and they say they will come back on Monday and lift a few paving slabs and dig a hole just outside the door. If it's at the front door they will fix it free of charge and if they don't find it they'll fit a stopcock to tell for certain if it's outside in the garden or inside.
If it's inside having a hole inside an a hole outside I'll probably just get a new section of pipe through the 10ft or so rather than dig up my hallway and under the stairs.
Honestly if it turns out the leak was outside all along then the trace team and insurer will be getting an earful
I spent about 8 years of my career specialising in water and drainage insurance claims. We used to always get reports about leaks below kitchens etc and the solution was always to make a new connection and cap off the old. Saves thousands in removing kitchens/floors and is all done and dusted in a few hours work.
Good luck and hopefully all on track to be resolved.
Water company fixed the leak but the copper pipe was 70 years old so decided to get a new 25mm blue pipe installed 50ft all the way through from the stop cock in the kitchen to the one in the street, they removed the sods dug down 2ft with a mini digger and put them back, and all for £250 which should future proof it as it's rated down to -30c.
Also got a phone call from the insurer today who aren't best pleased with the antics of the track and trace team and the equipment they used which was wholly inaccurate. I actually believe the guy they sent didn't have much of a clue and dug up my floor for the sake of it knowing the insurer would pay them up to £5k for the privilege . I asked the trace team and insurer twice and they said the report was accurate and the location of the leak wasn't up for debate. If I had known the leak was in the front garden at the start I wouldn never have contacted the insurer and dug it myself and got a plumber privately so I'm a bit peeved if I have to pay the excess given they didn't detect the leak and inconvenienced me for over a month.
Edited by sutoka on Friday 3rd March 01:02
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