Liquidator questions
Discussion
Hello all, a little advice if I may, please?
Our kitchen supplier went into liquidation before the job was complete, and we have subsequently had to pay independent contractors to complete the job.
We had an outstanding final payment which we've not paid, and the liquidator is now chasing us for that.
Do we need to pay the liquidator, or should we speak to them, and point out our additional costs/services we were invoiced for were never provided?
Any advice very much welcomed, thanks.
Our kitchen supplier went into liquidation before the job was complete, and we have subsequently had to pay independent contractors to complete the job.
We had an outstanding final payment which we've not paid, and the liquidator is now chasing us for that.
Do we need to pay the liquidator, or should we speak to them, and point out our additional costs/services we were invoiced for were never provided?
Any advice very much welcomed, thanks.
I would say no.
The fee they set and invoiced for was to install the kitchen.
They didn’t. You had to get someone else on to complete it.
This is common in liquidations. The liquidator asks for money and then the work was no good / not completed / parts faulty etc etc etc.
Just write telling them the job wasn’t completed and that you will not be paying.
The odds of them following up is low. If they do then simply restate your position and give a chronology of events and a copy of the invoice / pmt you had to make to get someone else to finish it.
The fee they set and invoiced for was to install the kitchen.
They didn’t. You had to get someone else on to complete it.
This is common in liquidations. The liquidator asks for money and then the work was no good / not completed / parts faulty etc etc etc.
Just write telling them the job wasn’t completed and that you will not be paying.
The odds of them following up is low. If they do then simply restate your position and give a chronology of events and a copy of the invoice / pmt you had to make to get someone else to finish it.
Unfortunately one way of looking at it is:
You owe them a payment. The liquidators will chase you for 100% of this.
They owe you some work or a refund. The liquidators will have funds to give you a small % of this.
It's not my field but my simple view is that you should concentrate on showing you don't owe them anything.
You owe them a payment. The liquidators will chase you for 100% of this.
They owe you some work or a refund. The liquidators will have funds to give you a small % of this.
It's not my field but my simple view is that you should concentrate on showing you don't owe them anything.
You need to be able to show that your costs and losses were more than their claim for the unfinished work could be. So your replacement installers costs and all your time etc.
I’d also be claiming for the delay - can you quantify any loss - 3 weeks worth of takeaway whilst you waited for a new kitchen.
There’s also a slightly suspect claim for disappointment of not getting what you paid for - Jackson v Horizon Holidays is the case on that.
But simply, total up and calculate all the losses you can and point out they didn’t do the job!
I’d also be claiming for the delay - can you quantify any loss - 3 weeks worth of takeaway whilst you waited for a new kitchen.
There’s also a slightly suspect claim for disappointment of not getting what you paid for - Jackson v Horizon Holidays is the case on that.
But simply, total up and calculate all the losses you can and point out they didn’t do the job!
Austin_Metro said:
You need to be able to show that your costs and losses were more than their claim for the unfinished work could be. So your replacement installers costs and all your time etc.
...
Nope....
You need to show you've paid them anything they were actually due, in full.
Otherwise you are a debtor, you owe them say £5k. They will take that.
Your losses that they are liable for might be £4k, but there's only say £50k to share between say £250k of unsecured creditors, so the liquidators take their fee of £25k and share out the remaining £25k among the £250k, creditors get 10%. So your £4k gets £400 and your nett bill is £4600.
Very much better to say of the £5k work agreed, only x-amount is done, so you only owe them a little in the first place.
If you are both a debtor and a creditor, you can end up with a bill, even if you started being nett in credit.
Some dodgy guidance in this thread.
- The liquidator takes over the position of the failed company. If the failed company properly invoiced £5,000 then, on the face of things, the customer still owes £5,000 which remains payable to the liquidator.
- If the job either wasn't finished or wasn't done properly the customer has a counter-claim against the company/liquidator for the cost of getting the work finished or rectified.
dudleybloke said:
Tribal Chestnut said:
I expect they’ll try and coerce you into settling the invoice and say that you have to join the list of creditors to try and recover your losses. Don’t let them.
This. They may even threaten to take you to a small claims court. Let them. They onus will be on them to prove that the work was satisfactorily completed. They know quite well they can’t do this.
OutInTheShed said:
Nope.
You need to show you've paid them anything they were actually due, in full.
Otherwise you are a debtor, you owe them say £5k. They will take that.
Your losses that they are liable for might be £4k, but there's only say £50k to share between say £250k of unsecured creditors, so the liquidators take their fee of £25k and share out the remaining £25k among the £250k, creditors get 10%. So your £4k gets £400 and your nett bill is £4600.
Very much better to say of the £5k work agreed, only x-amount is done, so you only owe them a little in the first place.
If you are both a debtor and a creditor, you can end up with a bill, even if you started being nett in credit.
If you read my second post, I think you’ll see that I agree with you regarding that risk. Without knowing whether the amount was due to the company ahead of the failure to do the work or entering liquidation it would be premature to say he was in trouble. You need to show you've paid them anything they were actually due, in full.
Otherwise you are a debtor, you owe them say £5k. They will take that.
Your losses that they are liable for might be £4k, but there's only say £50k to share between say £250k of unsecured creditors, so the liquidators take their fee of £25k and share out the remaining £25k among the £250k, creditors get 10%. So your £4k gets £400 and your nett bill is £4600.
Very much better to say of the £5k work agreed, only x-amount is done, so you only owe them a little in the first place.
If you are both a debtor and a creditor, you can end up with a bill, even if you started being nett in credit.
Also, I suggested he post the terms of the contract. This may have something relevant to non performance. Or even liquidation, if very lucky!
The other issue might be liquidation set off which applies at the point of liquidation to net off mutual credits and debits. But I fear OP didn’t have a loss at that point that qualifies.
Pickled Piper said:
They onus will be on them to prove that the work was satisfactorily completed.
Yup. Liquidators tend to make a lot of noise but are generally reluctant to spend money following up with legal proceedings which can be time-consuming and costly.On the other hand in a simple supply of goods case it can be risky to think that just because a supplier's gone bust you don't need to pay.
Do not pay the liquidator.
Put together a statement showing what it cost you to get the kitchen finished, ideally this should show that the liquidator owes you money. It needs to be supported by receipts, invoices etc.
They can and do go to court, in one job dealing with liquidators (their staff since you never get to speak to them) was about 25% of my time. Leaving one mediation l asked what their next steps were . . , “Looks like we have to go after the MDs house”.
Put together a statement showing what it cost you to get the kitchen finished, ideally this should show that the liquidator owes you money. It needs to be supported by receipts, invoices etc.
They can and do go to court, in one job dealing with liquidators (their staff since you never get to speak to them) was about 25% of my time. Leaving one mediation l asked what their next steps were . . , “Looks like we have to go after the MDs house”.
Pickled Piper said:
dudleybloke said:
Tribal Chestnut said:
I expect they’ll try and coerce you into settling the invoice and say that you have to join the list of creditors to try and recover your losses. Don’t let them.
This. They may even threaten to take you to a small claims court. Let them. They onus will be on them to prove that the work was satisfactorily completed. They know quite well they can’t do this.
They'll then excuse themselves and walk off with the lions share of the funds leaving the thick end of nothing for the creditors!
I'll caveat this by saying my experience of liquidators is with small companies of <£5m turnover so it might be a different story for bigger failures (though I doubt it!).
My advice would be like many others, be as awkward as possible. Once they realise you're not a quick win they'll move on and mark you as an unrecoverable debt.
Liquidators protect their position, they will not do work if they have no chance to recover.
Your cintractor is on breach, you are entitled to damages.
If you owe them x, write a registerd letter claiming say 2x in damages, with an offer to settle at x as a practical solution. Then ignore all further correspondence.
Providing you have a resonable case just fight them
Your cintractor is on breach, you are entitled to damages.
If you owe them x, write a registerd letter claiming say 2x in damages, with an offer to settle at x as a practical solution. Then ignore all further correspondence.
Providing you have a resonable case just fight them
Panamax said:
Some dodgy guidance in this thread.
Exactly this - had this a few times through our work. Liquidators chasing invoices for things not done/finished. A quick email confirming position and they normally sort it/cancel all/part of the the invoice.- The liquidator takes over the position of the failed company. If the failed company properly invoiced £5,000 then, on the face of things, the customer still owes £5,000 which remains payable to the liquidator.
- If the job either wasn't finished or wasn't done properly the customer has a counter-claim against the company/liquidator for the cost of getting the work finished or rectified.
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