Ebay ruling interesting case record player
Discussion
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/real-life/brit...
I always understood eBay's term don't always reflect the law. I don't buy the damage story, sounds like he had a better offer, but definitely a case to remember.
I always understood eBay's term don't always reflect the law. I don't buy the damage story, sounds like he had a better offer, but definitely a case to remember.
Interesting that this is a European law that has apparently been incoporated into English law.
My understanding was that puting something into an action was 'an invitation to treat' the bidder makes an offer and acceptance is when the 'hammer' falls. That apoears to be the Ebay rule, so you can wirhdraw, the invitation orior to the hammer as there is no contract.
This law appears, to me, to now say that placing it in the auction is an offer and the bid is an accceptance. But that can't be right because the first bid over the reserve would form a contract.
I'd be interested in a knowledgeable opinion on the Law.
My understanding was that puting something into an action was 'an invitation to treat' the bidder makes an offer and acceptance is when the 'hammer' falls. That apoears to be the Ebay rule, so you can wirhdraw, the invitation orior to the hammer as there is no contract.
This law appears, to me, to now say that placing it in the auction is an offer and the bid is an accceptance. But that can't be right because the first bid over the reserve would form a contract.
I'd be interested in a knowledgeable opinion on the Law.
Grumps. said:
Why did the UK decide to keep some farcical EU laws in place?
If we are supposed to be out, we should be fully out IMO, unless i am not understanding things correctly?
I voted remain but I agree with you.If we are supposed to be out, we should be fully out IMO, unless i am not understanding things correctly?
Not enough detail on this story. I have finished auctions early but before anyone has bid.
Others always say that the item is for sale elsewhere thus may finish auction early.
Finishing an auction early when there are bids is not on really. What's the point of the auction.
If it was broken, let the highest bidder know and leave it up to them if they want to buy it or not.
As the other poster said, sounds like the seller realised that it wasn't going to go for a price that he hoped thus cancelled the auction.
A number of times I have had that sickening feeling when something I am selling goes for a far lower price than I thought it worth. You just have to bite the bullet.
Should have put on a reserve price.
dundarach said:
It's a tape recorder and a very expensive one.
Whilst the judgement is silly, I suspect he realised how much more it was worth.
Otherwise you'd be right happy to send the broken one.
Regardless, he followed the rules and if eBay doesn't pay, not sure where that leaves them.
Bizarre though - it still had 8 days to run so may well have been bid up by £10k over that timeframe. Being the highest bidder before the end of the auction doesn't make you the winning bidder.Whilst the judgement is silly, I suspect he realised how much more it was worth.
Otherwise you'd be right happy to send the broken one.
Regardless, he followed the rules and if eBay doesn't pay, not sure where that leaves them.
If this is as it appears it can set a rather dangerous precedent.
I stopped using eBay to sell last year, much cheaper platforms for what I sold, but the thought that a simple cancellation for any reason can trigger this is quite scary.
One of my last experiences was buying an item. I won it quite cheaply and wasn't at all surprised when the seller claimed it had been stolen from their garden that very morning (yeah right). I decided to poke the bear a bit and have some fun, told them it was unfortunate as I'd already paid by Paypal so technically it was my property at the time, and they were looking after it until I could collect (disclaimer, I was making it up as I went along). I asked for a crime reference to be met with lots of excuses. It was mildly amusing to see them flustered. Eventually after a week they did refund and then stopped replying
Made sure my feedback named the item and the fact that it had supposedly been stolen so they couldn't really list it via that account again.
When I read this article last night I did comment that surely based on that I could have purchased another and sued them for the difference, but then for £100 it's not worth the hassle.
I stopped using eBay to sell last year, much cheaper platforms for what I sold, but the thought that a simple cancellation for any reason can trigger this is quite scary.
One of my last experiences was buying an item. I won it quite cheaply and wasn't at all surprised when the seller claimed it had been stolen from their garden that very morning (yeah right). I decided to poke the bear a bit and have some fun, told them it was unfortunate as I'd already paid by Paypal so technically it was my property at the time, and they were looking after it until I could collect (disclaimer, I was making it up as I went along). I asked for a crime reference to be met with lots of excuses. It was mildly amusing to see them flustered. Eventually after a week they did refund and then stopped replying
Made sure my feedback named the item and the fact that it had supposedly been stolen so they couldn't really list it via that account again.When I read this article last night I did comment that surely based on that I could have purchased another and sued them for the difference, but then for £100 it's not worth the hassle.
I've tried to do some reading, it apears that the default law is that of the country where the auction takes place. So I dont see how that is Germany, Ebay are Usa based, goods are in rhe Uk, I'd suggest the seller ignored correspondence from the German Court and the buyer got a judjment in the selkers absence, very strange.
Berw said:
I've tried to do some reading, it apears that the default law is that of the country where the auction takes place. So I dont see how that is Germany, Ebay are Usa based, goods are in rhe Uk, I'd suggest the seller ignored correspondence from the German Court and the buyer got a judjment in the selkers absence, very strange.
The article states this was not the case"He took the case to the German Regional Court with Mr Godden joining the hearing online"
The story invites lots of questions...
Like, why wasn't he prepared to sell it as damaged? He could have just modified the auction description to point out the damage that was noticed and leave bidders to decide whether they want to retract their bids or not.
Why didn't he just suggest in mediation that he supply the damaged machine to the claimant? He obviously can't supply an undamaged one - so in terms of possible resolutions that's the absolute best he can do. That he couldn't / wouldn't do that is suspicious.
My guess is that someone messaged him and offered him a "buy it now" sum to do the deal offline, which he then did. The guy winning the auction - who possibly realised the seller didn't know what he had and that he might get a bargain - sensed something was off and went legal.
On the one hand looking at it completely objectively it does seem worrying, but at the same time I'm highly suspicious of the narrative that the guy just took the auction down when he realised it was damaged. The jurisdiction one is interesting though, no idea why this would not be heard where the defendant is, rather than the claimaint.
Like, why wasn't he prepared to sell it as damaged? He could have just modified the auction description to point out the damage that was noticed and leave bidders to decide whether they want to retract their bids or not.
Why didn't he just suggest in mediation that he supply the damaged machine to the claimant? He obviously can't supply an undamaged one - so in terms of possible resolutions that's the absolute best he can do. That he couldn't / wouldn't do that is suspicious.
My guess is that someone messaged him and offered him a "buy it now" sum to do the deal offline, which he then did. The guy winning the auction - who possibly realised the seller didn't know what he had and that he might get a bargain - sensed something was off and went legal.
On the one hand looking at it completely objectively it does seem worrying, but at the same time I'm highly suspicious of the narrative that the guy just took the auction down when he realised it was damaged. The jurisdiction one is interesting though, no idea why this would not be heard where the defendant is, rather than the claimaint.
Southerner said:
How the hell did they end up at a figure of £12k? Ardent remainer here but even I can't help but wonder if this is a smartarse court trying some post-Brexit boundary pushing!
This is, surely, a matter of huge concern for ebay more than anyone.
"Mr Godden was ordered to pay £7,551 to cover the costs of an equivalent tape recorder and £4,049 for legal fees and bailiff costs after the court found he had created a contract with the German buyer"This is, surely, a matter of huge concern for ebay more than anyone.
The DM page on it (I'm not going to link to the DM, you can find it if you so desire) shows a picture of him *with* the tape recorder so I presume he *hasn't* sold it outside of ebay.
Given that the court insisted he paid for "the costs of an equivalent tape recorder" I'm somewhat bemused as to why instead he couldn't have insisted the "bidder" paid him that sum and he gives them the tape recorder he has!
Edited by Fastdruid on Monday 27th March 12:56
Grumps. said:
Why did the UK decide to keep some farcical EU laws in place?
If we are supposed to be out, we should be fully out IMO, unless i am not understanding things correctly?
Do you have any idea how much work it would have been to not just transfer the laws and then be at liberty to change them as we wish? Brexit date would have been in a decade. If we are supposed to be out, we should be fully out IMO, unless i am not understanding things correctly?
And before you say let’s just ignore them all then do you have any idea the carnage that would be in an allegedly major and significant country?
If I remember correctly, the last time I had the balls to sell anything of value on that website, there was an option to exclude international buyers which would have excluded anyone outside the uk.
I realise this might limit the coverage but this case absolutely proves why people should either use this option, or not use eBay.
I realise this might limit the coverage but this case absolutely proves why people should either use this option, or not use eBay.
croyde said:
Grumps. said:
Why did the UK decide to keep some farcical EU laws in place?
If we are supposed to be out, we should be fully out IMO, unless i am not understanding things correctly?
I voted remain but I agree with you.If we are supposed to be out, we should be fully out IMO, unless i am not understanding things correctly?
Not enough detail on this story. I have finished auctions early but before anyone has bid.
Others always say that the item is for sale elsewhere thus may finish auction early.
Finishing an auction early when there are bids is not on really. What's the point of the auction.
If it was broken, let the highest bidder know and leave it up to them if they want to buy it or not.
As the other poster said, sounds like the seller realised that it wasn't going to go for a price that he hoped thus cancelled the auction.
A number of times I have had that sickening feeling when something I am selling goes for a far lower price than I thought it worth. You just have to bite the bullet.
Should have put on a reserve price.
I've just sold a laptop as spares or repair as the screen was damaged (lines across it). The buyer initiated a return based on lines on the screen (as per the listing and photos) and it not being as quick as the you tube video he watched on it. Ebay have sided with the buyer and forced me to accept the return. So i'm out of pocket for both the sending and return postage and if previous experience is anything to go by i'm expecting it to be returned missing parts so i can't relist.
I sell loads of stuff on ebay, but am seriously looking for other avenues. You just can't win as a seller. In this case i'm not sure how the buyer can claim they won the auction though when it hadn't ended. I think I would have agreed to relist with the new accurate description and tell them to win it if they still wanted it.
Edited by ZiggyNiva on Monday 27th March 14:00
EmailAddress said:
ZiggyNiva said:
I've just sold a laptop as spares or repair as the screen was damaged (lines across it). The buyer initiated a return based on lines on the screen (as per the listing and photos) and it not being as quick as the you tube video he watched on it.
Ebay have sided with the buyer and forced me to accept the return. So i'm out of pocket for both the sending and return postage and if previous experience is anything to go by i'm expecting it to be returned missing parts so i can't relist.
I sell loads of stuff on ebay, but am seriously looking for other avenues. You just can't win as a seller.
How does eBay justify that when it's 'as described'?Ebay have sided with the buyer and forced me to accept the return. So i'm out of pocket for both the sending and return postage and if previous experience is anything to go by i'm expecting it to be returned missing parts so i can't relist.
I sell loads of stuff on ebay, but am seriously looking for other avenues. You just can't win as a seller.
EmailAddress said:
ZiggyNiva said:
I've just sold a laptop as spares or repair as the screen was damaged (lines across it). The buyer initiated a return based on lines on the screen (as per the listing and photos) and it not being as quick as the you tube video he watched on it.
Ebay have sided with the buyer and forced me to accept the return. So i'm out of pocket for both the sending and return postage and if previous experience is anything to go by i'm expecting it to be returned missing parts so i can't relist.
I sell loads of stuff on ebay, but am seriously looking for other avenues. You just can't win as a seller.
How does eBay justify that when it's 'as described'?Ebay have sided with the buyer and forced me to accept the return. So i'm out of pocket for both the sending and return postage and if previous experience is anything to go by i'm expecting it to be returned missing parts so i can't relist.
I sell loads of stuff on ebay, but am seriously looking for other avenues. You just can't win as a seller.
I've had it in the past, sold an old cheap electric guitar to someone. Stated on the listing that as it was an instrument and I *didn't* play the guitar all I could guarantee was it appeared to work through an amp but not tested (genuinely) beyond that, best to collect in person and verify condition. Set to collection only but I did say I'd consider shipping it.
Made the mistake of *not* limiting it to the UK only and someone from Europe bought it (can't remember where now). Shipped it at some expense abroad only for the buyer to complain that one of the pots was "scratchy" (it was a 30 year old cheap guitar and they're about 50p!) and on taking it apart the tremolo block (made from pot metal) was cracked. He asked for something like £80 for a top quality replacement bridge.
Now I did feel bad for the crack (but not having taken the back off really *didn't* know) so offered him the price of a Chinese replacement given it was only ever a cheap starter guitar.... he filed a not as described case!
The hard case it was in was probably worth more than the guitar as well!
I refused to email him postage and said I'd refund if he sent it back... thankfully I don't think he realised he could have just done that through ebay as I heard nothing further.
Put me right off ebay though.
EmailAddress said:
This pretty much retcons the last twenty years of vehicle selling on eBay too.
Can you just imagine the retrospective carnage if this set an enforceable precident.
Would be fun, but the element of proving who did the bids and who offered the item would make it difficult.Can you just imagine the retrospective carnage if this set an enforceable precident.
I predict that in future a lot of the scummier eBay sellers will simply claim their account was hacked and they never had such an item for sale... Tape recorder? Oooh not me guv, never heard of such a thing in my decades as a recording studio tech.
I auctioned a car on eBay and it was farcical... Clearly phony accounts were used to drive up the price and drive away genuine bidders. The messages were coming in thick and fast within a minute of the auction closing, "let me know if the winning bidder falls through!". Would love to be able to prove the highest bidder and make them pay me the extra £5k they bid over what it was worth.
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