Council car park closed - signage requirements
Discussion
I parked my car in a long stay Highland Council car park in Fort William last Saturday 8th April and went off hill walking and camping for the weekend. I’d bought a permit online using Ringgo before leaving home. When I returned to my car on Sunday, the car park entrance was coned off and I had a PCN on my windscreen. When I parked up, I had failed to notice a sign saying that the car park would be closed from the Sunday 9th April. The sign consisted of a sheet of A4 paper taped to a board at knee height at the car park entrance. I feel that the sign was inadequate. There were a dozen cars with PCNs so I wasn’t the only one who hadn’t noticed the sign. Does anyone know if there are any regulations that define the minimum requirement for a sign giving notice that a car park will be closed for a time. This is a council car park in Scotland. I’ve attached a photograph of the sign for reference. I don’t want to waste anyone’s time challenging the PCN if I don’t have a leg to stand on.
Don't see why a challenge would be a waste of time, although I doubt there would be a "minimum signage requirement" there is a sign & it is visible.
In your circumstances you could push the fact that the online purchase came with no warning notification, just do it quickly in order to get the challenge in well before your "early settlement" entitlement runs out.
In your circumstances you could push the fact that the online purchase came with no warning notification, just do it quickly in order to get the challenge in well before your "early settlement" entitlement runs out.
E-bmw said:
Don't see why a challenge would be a waste of time, although I doubt there would be a "minimum signage requirement" there is a sign & it is visible.
In your circumstances you could push the fact that the online purchase came with no warning notification, just do it quickly in order to get the challenge in well before your "early settlement" entitlement runs out.
I had a constructive conversation with the traffic warden (?) who put the sign up and said the same to him re. online purchase. He said there was no way of updating Ringgo with car park closures. Another driver who had a PCN (there were at least a dozen cars with PCNs) told him he had put money in the meter on the Saturday and it had let him pay for long term parking with no warning. The traffic warden did say we had nothing to lose by challening the PCNs so guess I'll do that and see what happens.In your circumstances you could push the fact that the online purchase came with no warning notification, just do it quickly in order to get the challenge in well before your "early settlement" entitlement runs out.
Worth a challenge if they don't uphold, I think the you could appeal, although its such a waste of a persons time.
I have challenged a few council PCNs and have a 50% hit rate, so its always worth a try.
If they allow prebooking they need to stop monies being taken for period they shut the carparks! (Madness) also the CIO should have used common sense when he saw you paid.
What contravention code did they use?
I have challenged a few council PCNs and have a 50% hit rate, so its always worth a try.
If they allow prebooking they need to stop monies being taken for period they shut the carparks! (Madness) also the CIO should have used common sense when he saw you paid.
What contravention code did they use?
DashDriver said:
Worth a challenge if they don't uphold, I think the you could appeal, although its such a waste of a persons time.
I have challenged a few council PCNs and have a 50% hit rate, so its always worth a try.
If they allow prebooking they need to stop monies being taken for period they shut the carparks! (Madness) also the CIO should have used common sense when he saw you paid.
What contravention code did they use?
It's code "81 Parked in a restricted area in a car park". I'm definitely going to challenge it, nothing to lose.I have challenged a few council PCNs and have a 50% hit rate, so its always worth a try.
If they allow prebooking they need to stop monies being taken for period they shut the carparks! (Madness) also the CIO should have used common sense when he saw you paid.
What contravention code did they use?
toddler said:
It's code "81 Parked in a restricted area in a car park". I'm definitely going to challenge it, nothing to lose.
Made an enquiry, guess what that weekend they sell the carpark to a fun fair outfit! That what the Authorised by them means!
South African chap I spoke to had no idea the sign was pants and that they still sell parking on ringo!
DashDriver said:
Made an enquiry, guess what that weekend they sell the carpark to a fun fair outfit!
That what the Authorised by them means!
South African chap I spoke to had no idea the sign was pants and that they still sell parking on ringo!
Yea, I spoke with a traffic warden who said the car park was being kept clear for a fun fair. Annoyingly, it was only half the car park that was closed, if I'd parked a few bays away I'd have been okay. That what the Authorised by them means!
South African chap I spoke to had no idea the sign was pants and that they still sell parking on ringo!
toddler said:
Yea, I spoke with a traffic warden who said the car park was being kept clear for a fun fair.
...then think yourself lucky you didn't come back and find you'd been part of the dodgem's attraction 
On a serious note, it's a council and I've always found them to be accommodating when a reasonable argument is made. 3/3 tickets overturned for me.
toddler said:
E-bmw said:
Don't see why a challenge would be a waste of time, although I doubt there would be a "minimum signage requirement" there is a sign & it is visible.
In your circumstances you could push the fact that the online purchase came with no warning notification, just do it quickly in order to get the challenge in well before your "early settlement" entitlement runs out.
I had a constructive conversation with the traffic warden (?) who put the sign up and said the same to him re. online purchase. He said there was no way of updating Ringgo with car park closures. Another driver who had a PCN (there were at least a dozen cars with PCNs) told him he had put money in the meter on the Saturday and it had let him pay for long term parking with no warning. The traffic warden did say we had nothing to lose by challening the PCNs so guess I'll do that and see what happens.In your circumstances you could push the fact that the online purchase came with no warning notification, just do it quickly in order to get the challenge in well before your "early settlement" entitlement runs out.
I had one squashed recently where the online app allowed me to buy a day ticket in a car park that was season ticket holders only before 9:30am.
toddler said:
Does anyone know if there are any regulations that define the minimum requirement for a sign giving notice that a car park will be closed for a time.
I don't believe there are regulations which direct that sort of thing in granular detail, but the signs would have to be prominent enough that a reasonable person would be expected to see them. So a karge sign at the entry to the car park covering up the "P" signs would definitely be OK. Small piece of paper in the far corner would not be OK. Somewhere between those two extremes is a grey area where it would be down to the adjudicator to make a judgement call on whether the signs were visible enough to give drivers fair warning.toddler said:
I had a constructive conversation with the traffic warden (?) who put the sign up and said the same to him re. online purchase. He said there was no way of updating Ringgo with car park closures.
They shouldn't be using such a poor system if it can't block out unavailable time periods. Also even if it can't, they should easily be able to create a report of customers who have purchased parking for that time and text/email them to let them know about the closure. My guess is they probably can block it out and get reports, but nobody bothers to or perhaps even knows how to.Quick update. Sent off my challenge today and it was rejected within a couple of hours. Unsurpisingly, they're satisfied their sign was correctly placed. I still think a sheet of A4 paper taped to a board just above ground level is a bit crap but if there really are no rules/regs I can check then I really don't have any grounds to appeal. Life's too short, I'll pay the £50, lesson learned.
loskie said:
so they allowed you via their agent to enter into a contract for parking? Then fine you for contravening their rules despite them/their agent accepting that contract of paid for parking.
Indeed...IMO you had, and paid for, a contract which ultimately they couldn't stick to yet fined you!toddler said:
Quick update. Sent off my challenge today and it was rejected within a couple of hours. Unsurpisingly, they're satisfied their sign was correctly placed. I still think a sheet of A4 paper taped to a board just above ground level is a bit crap but if there really are no rules/regs I can check then I really don't have any grounds to appeal. Life's too short, I'll pay the £50, lesson learned.
Shame, I’d fight that one all the way.Seems to me the people running the car park didn't make reasonable endeavours to ensure people didn't unwittingly pay for parking in a car park that wouldn't be available. The small piece of paper was clearly not sufficient given that multiple people made the same mistake. If they can't ensure their system doesn't sell parking for that period they should have had a sign up actually on the machine (and had it blocked out on the app you used).
The fact they don't know how to do this is not your problem OP.
The fact they don't know how to do this is not your problem OP.
bad company said:
toddler said:
Quick update. Sent off my challenge today and it was rejected within a couple of hours. Unsurpisingly, they're satisfied their sign was correctly placed. I still think a sheet of A4 paper taped to a board just above ground level is a bit crap but if there really are no rules/regs I can check then I really don't have any grounds to appeal. Life's too short, I'll pay the £50, lesson learned.
Shame, I’d fight that one all the way.A better photo for the appeal would be a wider angle showing the scale of the entrance at least and how an A4 piece of paper is tiny, not a close up of the piece of paper.
Also contractually think I'd be suing Ringgo for their breach of contract.
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