Notice To Owner
Discussion
...I thought I was up to speed with all the terminology the scammers and parasites use such as NIP etc. but I've just got a form called Notice to Owner informing me that in no uncertain terms if I don't pay a fine of £100 within a month the debt will be registered with the County Court and they will send bailiffs round!
The reason I've got this form is because I got a parking ticket back in May for parking directly outside my own house! Where I live in London there is a residents parking scheme. I was parked up outside my own house without a permit because to obtain a permit you have to jump through so many hoops - you have to supply your V5 before they give you a permit, my problem was I had sent my V5 off as I had changed to a private plate and the DVLA took 2 months to send the new V5 back!
Ironically, a week or so after I got the parking ticket I got my V5 back and bought a permit etc – and I wrote to the parking appeals dept, enclosing photocopy of my new permit etc and I just got a dumb pre-prepared letter hashed together by some robot informing me that my appeal was worthless, and that I should have “simply made alternative parking arrangements” and they were upping the fine from the original £50 to £100. Honestly, parking outside ones home should be a RIGHT not a privilege. The last time I parked outside of the parking zone my car got broken into and trashed so there was no way I was going to be parking it anywhere else.
Anyone got any ideas on what I can do to fight this or at least delay the process even more and basically get up the noses of these thieving robbing gits? It just makes me fume as its a total revenue-gathering exercise as the wardens come round once a week at the most!
The reason I've got this form is because I got a parking ticket back in May for parking directly outside my own house! Where I live in London there is a residents parking scheme. I was parked up outside my own house without a permit because to obtain a permit you have to jump through so many hoops - you have to supply your V5 before they give you a permit, my problem was I had sent my V5 off as I had changed to a private plate and the DVLA took 2 months to send the new V5 back!
Ironically, a week or so after I got the parking ticket I got my V5 back and bought a permit etc – and I wrote to the parking appeals dept, enclosing photocopy of my new permit etc and I just got a dumb pre-prepared letter hashed together by some robot informing me that my appeal was worthless, and that I should have “simply made alternative parking arrangements” and they were upping the fine from the original £50 to £100. Honestly, parking outside ones home should be a RIGHT not a privilege. The last time I parked outside of the parking zone my car got broken into and trashed so there was no way I was going to be parking it anywhere else.
Anyone got any ideas on what I can do to fight this or at least delay the process even more and basically get up the noses of these thieving robbing gits? It just makes me fume as its a total revenue-gathering exercise as the wardens come round once a week at the most!
It's always annoyed me the way these things are run.
I've always thought that proof of residence should suffice in a case like this. Otherwise, the offence becomes a petty compliance issue, rather than parking where you shouldn't.
I think that the permit diplayed should be there as a convenience to those checking. Nothing more.
And it's a bloody cheek to expect people to shell out to park outside their own house.
I've always thought that proof of residence should suffice in a case like this. Otherwise, the offence becomes a petty compliance issue, rather than parking where you shouldn't.
I think that the permit diplayed should be there as a convenience to those checking. Nothing more.
And it's a bloody cheek to expect people to shell out to park outside their own house.
Used to live in West Hampstead in a CPZ area and had a similar problem obtaining a permit while waiting for DVLA to do their stuff.
They (camden parking 'services') were good enough to issue me with a short-term permit to tide me over until the forms were back.
Unfortunately, much as it rankles, you haven't a leg to stand on and will have to pay.
Farking annoying though.
They (camden parking 'services') were good enough to issue me with a short-term permit to tide me over until the forms were back.
Unfortunately, much as it rankles, you haven't a leg to stand on and will have to pay.
Farking annoying though.
I got scammed in a similar way. They ticketed me when I was down at the town hall getting the permit sorted out FFS.
I'm really not quite sure where else you are supposed to park whilst sorting the permit out, but hey these people just want our money. Council tax is not enough obviously.
I'm really not quite sure where else you are supposed to park whilst sorting the permit out, but hey these people just want our money. Council tax is not enough obviously.
Did you approach the Council before the change and V5 to DVLA?
The time to have taken the appeal route was when you received the first ticket in May.
Reading between the lines it would appear you have done nothing until after the ticket and then on and as a result the bee is now, lawfully, going to sting.
dvd
The time to have taken the appeal route was when you received the first ticket in May.
Reading between the lines it would appear you have done nothing until after the ticket and then on and as a result the bee is now, lawfully, going to sting.
dvd
Send this letter seems to be doing the trick at the moment
www.bwmaonline.com/Legal%20-%20New%20doubts%20-%20Thoburn%20conviction.htm
Chief Executive [Address of Local Authority]
Dear [name],
Please find enclosed a copy of Parking Ticket [insert reference number] which I received on [date]. It was issued by [name of company issuing ticket] on behalf of [Local Authority] and is attempting to impose a 'Penalty Charge' of £XX (reduced to £XX if paid within XX days).
Upon checking the legislation, I was surprised to find that [Local Authority], or its agents, appear to be attempting to extort money from me in an unlawful manner. Please find enclosed an extract of the Bill of Rights Act 1689, enacted and formally entered into Statute following the Declaration of Rights 1689. I draw your attention to the section that I have highlighted:
"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void".
This states that a conviction is necessary before a fine or forfeit can be imposed. As you will be aware, the Bill of Rights is a "constitutional statue" and may not be repealed impliedly. As stated in the "Metric Martyrs" Judgment in the Divisional Court (18th February 2002) by Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice Crane (I will paraphrase, but have included a copy of the judgment's relevant sections 62 and 63):
62."We should recognise a hierarchy of Acts of Parliament: as it were 'ordinary' statutes and 'constitutional statutes.' The special status of constitutional statutes follows the special status of constitutional rights. Examples are the ... Bill of Rights 1689 ... 63. Ordinary statutes may be impliedly repealed. Constitutional statutes may not…"
I am not aware that the [insert name of relevant Act or Acts e.g. Road Traffic Act 1991, Road Traffic Act 1994, London Local Government Act 2000, etc] makes express reference to repealing the Bill of Rights Act 1689.
Therefore, it would appear that [Local Authority] and its agents have no lawful authority to demand money for an alleged infringement that has not been dealt with by a Court of Law. If you wish to proceed against me, please refer the matter to a Court of Law in an orderly fashion. Otherwise, the forfeit demanded of me is illegal and void.
Please also confirm to me in writing that you have advised the relevant officers of the Council and its agents that they are acting illegally by attempting to claim powers which are forbidden to them, and that all issuing of penalties is being done only after conviction by a Court of Law.
Yours sincerely, etc
ENCLOSURES
1. Photocopy of Penalty Charge Notice
2. Extract of the Bill of Rights Act 1689
3. Extract of Metric Martyrs Judgment, sections 62 and 63.
www.bwmaonline.com/Legal%20-%20New%20doubts%20-%20Thoburn%20conviction.htm
Chief Executive [Address of Local Authority]
Dear [name],
Please find enclosed a copy of Parking Ticket [insert reference number] which I received on [date]. It was issued by [name of company issuing ticket] on behalf of [Local Authority] and is attempting to impose a 'Penalty Charge' of £XX (reduced to £XX if paid within XX days).
Upon checking the legislation, I was surprised to find that [Local Authority], or its agents, appear to be attempting to extort money from me in an unlawful manner. Please find enclosed an extract of the Bill of Rights Act 1689, enacted and formally entered into Statute following the Declaration of Rights 1689. I draw your attention to the section that I have highlighted:
"That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void".
This states that a conviction is necessary before a fine or forfeit can be imposed. As you will be aware, the Bill of Rights is a "constitutional statue" and may not be repealed impliedly. As stated in the "Metric Martyrs" Judgment in the Divisional Court (18th February 2002) by Lord Justice Laws and Mr Justice Crane (I will paraphrase, but have included a copy of the judgment's relevant sections 62 and 63):
62."We should recognise a hierarchy of Acts of Parliament: as it were 'ordinary' statutes and 'constitutional statutes.' The special status of constitutional statutes follows the special status of constitutional rights. Examples are the ... Bill of Rights 1689 ... 63. Ordinary statutes may be impliedly repealed. Constitutional statutes may not…"
I am not aware that the [insert name of relevant Act or Acts e.g. Road Traffic Act 1991, Road Traffic Act 1994, London Local Government Act 2000, etc] makes express reference to repealing the Bill of Rights Act 1689.
Therefore, it would appear that [Local Authority] and its agents have no lawful authority to demand money for an alleged infringement that has not been dealt with by a Court of Law. If you wish to proceed against me, please refer the matter to a Court of Law in an orderly fashion. Otherwise, the forfeit demanded of me is illegal and void.
Please also confirm to me in writing that you have advised the relevant officers of the Council and its agents that they are acting illegally by attempting to claim powers which are forbidden to them, and that all issuing of penalties is being done only after conviction by a Court of Law.
Yours sincerely, etc
ENCLOSURES
1. Photocopy of Penalty Charge Notice
2. Extract of the Bill of Rights Act 1689
3. Extract of Metric Martyrs Judgment, sections 62 and 63.
Dwight VanDriver said:
Thats been doing the rounds for ages and have yet to read it having been reported a success by the various Motoring Correspondents.
They tried it with the Conditional Offer for RT offences and given short shrift. The reason is obvious if you work it out.
dvd
And it shouldn't work with RT offenses. However I think it should work with parking etc. However the only way to make it work is to get a ticket, pay the ticket and then take it to court to get the money back.
All the major conurbations now have applied under Schedule 3 of Road Traffic Act 1991 for permitted parking areas and special parking areas Orders.
Once granted then it decriminalises parking and infringements no longer have an avenue of appeal through a Mags Court. Infringement penalties , if not paid, are followed up as a civil debt so no Court or fine involved. An appeal system is present through an Adjudicator.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Nugent.
dvd
Once granted then it decriminalises parking and infringements no longer have an avenue of appeal through a Mags Court. Infringement penalties , if not paid, are followed up as a civil debt so no Court or fine involved. An appeal system is present through an Adjudicator.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Nugent.
dvd
www.parkingticket.co.uk/ab.html
This site probably has as much useful information adn as many links as any. The URL links directly to the Links page - adjust as required for the home page.
This site probably has as much useful information adn as many links as any. The URL links directly to the Links page - adjust as required for the home page.
Thanks all for your input, most helpful. Glad to know Im not the only one being scammed in these most nefarious circumstances.
DVD - no I didn't approach the Council beforehand simply because you have to go in person and the office hours clash with my day job and I didn't ensivage the DVLA taking SO long for a tiny piece of paper. (but knowing their track record perhaps I should).
However its a good case of how all these big public quangos should have their own houses in order before they start dishing out their own rough justice - eg when the DVLA cock up, do they give you a refund on your tax disc eh?! do they not! yet to err is human, and when you are a day late with re-taxing you get an instant fine, no questions asked!
bluepolarbear - interesting one, not seen that before, will try that one at the first stage of appeal if I ever get a ticket again!
LongQ - useful site - swiftly added to my Favourites!
>> Edited by jimx19 on Thursday 25th August 14:02
DVD - no I didn't approach the Council beforehand simply because you have to go in person and the office hours clash with my day job and I didn't ensivage the DVLA taking SO long for a tiny piece of paper. (but knowing their track record perhaps I should).
However its a good case of how all these big public quangos should have their own houses in order before they start dishing out their own rough justice - eg when the DVLA cock up, do they give you a refund on your tax disc eh?! do they not! yet to err is human, and when you are a day late with re-taxing you get an instant fine, no questions asked!
bluepolarbear - interesting one, not seen that before, will try that one at the first stage of appeal if I ever get a ticket again!
LongQ - useful site - swiftly added to my Favourites!
>> Edited by jimx19 on Thursday 25th August 14:02
deva link - indeed you are correct, which is why I am doubly furious!!! this parking system is just a money generating sham, every now and then when the coffers are a bit low at the town hall they send out the wardens to grab a bit of money!
What PARTICULARY irked me was on the automated letter I got was this quote:
"Parking controls within the London Borough of Greenwich are set to improve road safety and traffic flow and to share the available parking space."
...which is completely contradicted if the wardens come round once in a blue moon!
What PARTICULARY irked me was on the automated letter I got was this quote:
"Parking controls within the London Borough of Greenwich are set to improve road safety and traffic flow and to share the available parking space."
...which is completely contradicted if the wardens come round once in a blue moon!
jimx19 said:Now I'm not disagreeing that your parking ticket is a right pain in the bum, but I have always found this kind of statement quite amusing. Have you looked at the deeds of your house lately, or indeed the Land Registry entry? I think you'll find that the boundaries of what you own do not encompass the road outside your house or even the pavement outside your house.
Honestly, parking outside ones home should be a RIGHT not a privilege.
You don't own the road outside your house, someone else does (council? crown?). The owners of said road have let it be known that you require a permit to park there. You failed to purchase and display one (in fact, you've basically said you couldn't be bothered to get one) and now you have incurred a penalty, refused to pay it so have incurred a further penalty, and now feel your nose is out of joint over it.
You're entitled to your opinions and I'm entitled to mine - I pay enough council tax as it stands so I don't think I'm being unreasonable in thinking I have the right to park outside my own house for free!
Anyway, duh read my orginal postings more carefully.... I DID try my best to get a permit, but my hands were tied thanks to the DVLA!
Anyway, duh read my orginal postings more carefully.... I DID try my best to get a permit, but my hands were tied thanks to the DVLA!
jimx19 said:
Anyway, duh read my orginal postings more carefully.... I DID try my best to get a permit, but my hands were tied thanks to the DVLA!
But you said
jimx19 said:So you just let it ride instead and gambled on not getting a fine. You lost the gamble in this case.
no I didn't approach the Council beforehand simply because you have to go in person and the office hours clash with my day job
I really am not disagreeing with you that the penalty is a pain in the arse and that the council have made it hard for you to get the permit. Really, I'm not.
However, I was just commenting that your defence that you should have a right to park outside your house for free and that you shouldn't have got a penalty for failing to display a permit are a little weak, that's all. You didn't have a permit, you ran the risk of getting a penalty and in this case the risk didn't pay off.
If there is one thing I've learnt from PistonHeads it is never to start a thread whose sole purpose is for everyone to agree with you - it's not going to happen.
The whole parking thing is a farce anyway; its a dinosaur left in place from the Millenium Dome were it was introduced to cope with the influx of cars that never quite happenened...
I think I'm quite inclined to agree with you there!
JonRB said:
If there is one thing I've learnt from PistonHeads it is never to start a thread whose sole purpose is for everyone to agree with you - it's not going to happen.
I think I'm quite inclined to agree with you there!
JonRB said:
Honestly, parking outside ones home should be a RIGHT not a privilege.
Now I'm not disagreeing that your parking ticket is a right pain in the bum, but I have always found this kind of statement quite amusing. Have you looked at the deeds of your house lately, or indeed the Land Registry entry? I think you'll find that the boundaries of what you own do not encompass the road outside your house or even the pavement outside your house.
You don't own the road outside your house, someone else does (council? crown?). The owners of said road have let it be known that you require a permit to park there. You failed to purchase and display one (in fact, you've basically said you couldn't be bothered to get one) and now you have incurred a penalty, refused to pay it so have incurred a further penalty, and now feel your nose is out of joint over it.
Interesting that. My dad actually paid for the road to be built outside his house. The filthy liberal scum are currently trying to claim its theirs to put silly humps on. As far as the old mans concerned its his road. I think its high time we had a judicial review in this country. There are many advantages to having the road outside your house owned by you.
jimx19 said:I disagree (well, somebody had to!)
The whole parking thing is a farce anyway; its a dinosaur left in place from the Millenium Dome were it was introduced to cope with the influx of cars that never quite happenened...
JonRB said:
If there is one thing I've learnt from PistonHeads it is never to start a thread whose sole purpose is for everyone to agree with you - it's not going to happen.
I think I'm quite inclined to agree with you there!
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