60 or 70?

[Drawweight]

First of all I’m sure this has been discussed in the past but I can’t remember the consensus.

It refers to a short length of road on the A1 at Berwick upon Tweed.

Coming through it with sat Nav on it warns of a 70mph camera ahead but my thoughts are there are no dual carriageway signs and it is simply dualed to make access from the side road safer.

Agree or not?

[Caddyshack]

Isn’t the definition 2 lanes with a central reservation makes it 70?

[juice]

Caddyshack said:

Isn’t the definition 2 lanes with a central reservation makes it 70?

On my SAC, any road with a reservation (They way they explained it was, if it would stop a tennis ball from rolling across the carriageway) is a Dual Carriageway. I was tempted to ask would it still apply if you bounced said tennis ball but stopped myself as it was not groupthink

[IJWS15]

Even the camera sign shows it as NSL so 70.

Would I speed up for that section - no as the road design shows it to be a hazardous junction. Why else would the reservation be there. To quote the highways guy who ran part of the last speed awareness course I attended “We don’t spend money doing things like this unless there is a history of incidents”

[BertBert]

IJWS15 said:

Even the camera sign shows it as NSL so 70.

Would I speed up for that section - no as the road design shows it to be a hazardous junction. Why else would the reservation be there. To quote the highways guy who ran part of the last speed awareness course I attended “We don’t spend money doing things like this unless there is a history of incidents”

Ah yes, the trite banalities of the speed awareness course!

[LosingGrip]

Dual carriageway. 70 miles per hour. Not every dual carriageway has a sign before it.

[PF62]

juice said:

Caddyshack said:

Isn’t the definition 2 lanes with a central reservation makes it 70?

On my SAC, any road with a reservation (They way they explained it was, if it would stop a tennis ball from rolling across the carriageway) is a Dual Carriageway. I was tempted to ask would it still apply if you bounced said tennis ball but stopped myself as it was not groupthink

On that basis this is 70.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Ahz587xsm79B5iQS9?g_st=ic

[CoreyDog]

Sorry for the small highjack but thought I’d get some consensus on this one then.

Left side of a 50mph dual carriageway, right is a NSL dual carriageway. Either end they join into the usual dual carriageway setup with diverge for a mile or so here. Both ends are a 50mph limit.

So is the right hand side a 60 or a 70? Technically there is a central divide… just happens to be a big wood, I’ve been told it’s a 70 and a 60 by different people.

[juice]

PF62 said:

On that basis this is 70.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Ahz587xsm79B5iQS9?g_st=ic

Not saying I agreed with them, just relaying what the 'instructor' said.

[stemll]

juice said:

On my SAC, any road with a reservation (They way they explained it was, if it would stop a tennis ball from rolling across the carriageway) is a Dual Carriageway. I was tempted to ask would it still apply if you bounced said tennis ball but stopped myself as it was not groupthink

So, according to your SAC, this isn't a dual carriageway as the ball would happily roll from one side to the other

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9587292,-0.7255889...

Thanks for reassuring me that if I ever get a ticket, I'll take the points and not waste my time on a course

[Galveston]

CoreyDog said:

Sorry for the small highjack but thought I’d get some consensus on this one then.

Left side of a 50mph dual carriageway, right is a NSL dual carriageway. Either end they join into the usual dual carriageway setup with diverge for a mile or so here. Both ends are a 50mph limit.

So is the right hand side a 60 or a 70? Technically there is a central divide… just happens to be a big wood, I’ve been told it’s a 70 and a 60 by different people.

Looks like it's signed as two one-way roads, rather than being a dual carriageway. So 60mph, unless a lower limit has been applied.

[Galveston]

stemll said:

So, according to your SAC, this isn't a dual carriageway as the ball would happily roll from one side to the other

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9587292,-0.7255889...

Thanks for reassuring me that if I ever get a ticket, I'll take the points and not waste my time on a course

That's a dual carriageway. There's physical segregation between the two carriageways. 70mph NSL.

[stemll]

Galveston said:

stemll said:

So, according to your SAC, this isn't a dual carriageway as the ball would happily roll from one side to the other

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9587292,-0.7255889...

Thanks for reassuring me that if I ever get a ticket, I'll take the points and not waste my time on a course

That's a dual carriageway. There's physical segregation between the two carriageways. 70mph NSL.

I am well aware of that, I was responding to the point from Juice's SAC that said it was a dual carriageway if a ball could not roll from one side to the other

[gareth_r]

PF62 said:

On that basis this is 70.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Ahz587xsm79B5iQS9?g_st=ic

Correct - assuming that it's signed as NSL.

[col711]

I know this section of road well and I would disagree that there is 70 mph speed limit. To my mind, the long traffic island(s) are there to protect vehicles waiting to turn right and also shelter(s) traffic turning right from the minor road. There a pedestrian crossing at the northern end of the traffic island(s). This feature would not be present, in my experience, on a dual carriageway. The central reserve of a dual carriageway would have safety fencing/ barrier.

[Cliftonite]

col711 said:

I know this section of road well and I would disagree that there is 70 mph speed limit. To my mind, the long traffic island(s) are there to protect vehicles waiting to turn right and also shelter(s) traffic turning right from the minor road. There a pedestrian crossing at the northern end of the traffic island(s). This feature would not be present, in my experience, on a dual carriageway. The central reserve of a dual carriageway would have safety fencing/ barrier.

The central reserve of a dual carriageway does NOT necessarily have any safety fencing/ barrier. Grass, for example, is quite sufficient.

[I am alright Jack]

Cliftonite said:

col711 said:

I know this section of road well and I would disagree that there is 70 mph speed limit. To my mind, the long traffic island(s) are there to protect vehicles waiting to turn right and also shelter(s) traffic turning right from the minor road. There a pedestrian crossing at the northern end of the traffic island(s). This feature would not be present, in my experience, on a dual carriageway. The central reserve of a dual carriageway would have safety fencing/ barrier.

The central reserve of a dual carriageway does NOT necessarily have any safety fencing/ barrier. Grass, for example, is quite sufficient.

Yes, but he makes a good point. How long can a traffic island be before it becomes a central reserve? I don't know, but if there was a camera on that stretch of road I'm not sure I'd want to pass it in a car at 70.

Edited. I'm assuming col711 is talking about the op.

Edited by I am alright Jack on Monday 17th April 11:36

[QBee]

The A17 to the west of Kings Lynn is single carriageway road and dead straight.
At every junction are central grass islands, quite wide, just for 100-200 metres.
In the middle of them is a tarmac space for those turning right to wait safely in the centre of the road between carriageways.

It seems odd at first, because there are no speed limit signs for the single carriageway sections. but the sections with junctions all have 60 limits.
So dual carriageway doesn't mean 2 lanes each way, it means 1 or more lanes each way, separated from each other by a physical barrier or space.

Hence in the example above, where there is a separation of many yards, it is a 70 limit, not 60.

[Solocle]

stemll said:

I am well aware of that, I was responding to the point from Juice's SAC that said it was a dual carriageway if a ball could not roll from one side to the other

Could even roll a ball across some motorways...

[col711]

Cliftonite said:

The central reserve of a dual carriageway does NOT necessarily have any safety fencing/ barrier. Grass, for example, is quite sufficient.

In that case show me a section of dual carriageway without safety fence/barrier. The section of A75(M) in the photo has a barrier, it is continuous wire rope barrier.