Accidents: mostly day or night?
Discussion
Firstly, which types of speed cameras work in the darkness?
Further to this, Does anyone know what the ratio of KSIs are at night compared to during the day?
Comes from a pub discussion about how everyone I know who has had a NIP, it has always been during daylight. The upshot of the conversation being that you see much more speeders at night (just an observation, not backed up by any facts) and the likelyhood of drunk, drugged or tired drivers is much more after dark.
Further to this, Does anyone know what the ratio of KSIs are at night compared to during the day?
Comes from a pub discussion about how everyone I know who has had a NIP, it has always been during daylight. The upshot of the conversation being that you see much more speeders at night (just an observation, not backed up by any facts) and the likelyhood of drunk, drugged or tired drivers is much more after dark.
According to my sightings of the scamera partnership here in plymouth - speed kills when
1) The weather is nice
2) Between the hours of around 11am and 3pm
3) The road is straight, clear and there is no history of accidents in the past x years.
Darkness?
Speed doesnt kill in the dark - they would have to pay unsociable hours pay.... 
1) The weather is nice
2) Between the hours of around 11am and 3pm
3) The road is straight, clear and there is no history of accidents in the past x years.
Darkness?
Speed doesnt kill in the dark - they would have to pay unsociable hours pay.... Took a mate to Cwmbran on Monday to go before the beak for 80 in a 50 (O/T - note to self - don't go back to Cwmbran). Anyway, he got a 14 day ban and £300.
My point is that he got done by a van on the bridge over the Severn Toll Plaza in bright sunshine. On Monday, we passed through that area in one of the worst storms I've ever driven in and no sign of any camera vans at all.
Seems to me that they can't or won't turn out on the very days that the roads are most dangerous.
My point is that he got done by a van on the bridge over the Severn Toll Plaza in bright sunshine. On Monday, we passed through that area in one of the worst storms I've ever driven in and no sign of any camera vans at all.
Seems to me that they can't or won't turn out on the very days that the roads are most dangerous.
I've pasted this question and answer from the Somerset SCP's website.
Q:When the roads are quiet at night and traffic is light, the roads are safer, so surely it is unfair to prosecute people for speeding then?
A:The accident rate doubles at night, particularly late in the evening and in the early hours. This is due to higher vehicle speed, because there is less traffic, more alcohol consumption, tiredness and reduced visibility. Respect for speed limits is just as important at night, if not, more so.
Would we all agree that the accident rate doubles at night? If that's true I'll kiss a Gatso
According to them they do use the scam vans at night, but I've never seen one and I do alot of late evening driving.
Q:When the roads are quiet at night and traffic is light, the roads are safer, so surely it is unfair to prosecute people for speeding then?
A:The accident rate doubles at night, particularly late in the evening and in the early hours. This is due to higher vehicle speed, because there is less traffic, more alcohol consumption, tiredness and reduced visibility. Respect for speed limits is just as important at night, if not, more so.
Would we all agree that the accident rate doubles at night? If that's true I'll kiss a Gatso
According to them they do use the scam vans at night, but I've never seen one and I do alot of late evening driving.
deeps said:
I've pasted this question and answer from the Somerset SCP's website.
Q:When the roads are quiet at night and traffic is light, the roads are safer, so surely it is unfair to prosecute people for speeding then?
A:The accident rate doubles at night, particularly late in the evening and in the early hours. This is due to higher vehicle speed, because there is less traffic, more alcohol consumption, tiredness and reduced visibility. Respect for speed limits is just as important at night, if not, more so.
Would we all agree that the accident rate doubles at night? If that's true I'll kiss a Gatso
According to them they do use the scam vans at night, but I've never seen one and I do alot of late evening driving.
That was the point of my question. Common sense (or intuition, call it what you like) would suggest, as Sommerset SCP have kindly confirmed, that more accidents occur at night.
But, you never see camera vans out at night and I don't know anyone who's had a NIP from a fixed camera at night either.
Can anyone confirm that all types of fixed cameras work at night? I've read that lasers speed detectors don't work in the dark....
Taken from the Cumbria website:
and
and
and
Cumbria 'safety' tax collectors said:
Most fatal and serious injury accidents in the Penrith/Kendal rural area occur between 12noon and 5pm
and
them again said:
Virtually all fatal and serious injury accidents in the South Lakes area occurred in fine, dry weather and in daylight
and
StevieC's gang said:
In the Barrow area, most accidents occur at times when people are driving to or from work
and
yawn said:
The majority of fatal and serious injury accidents occur in fine, dry weather without high winds and on 60mph national speed limit roads
The worst times for Injury RTA's are indeed the times when people leave work - so there is a clear increase in a graph from around 4pm to around 7 pm - ish. This applies to most days of the week though Friday afternoons have an extended spread and a higher peak - usually.
As for night time - it depends what figures you are presenting. A count of accidents would be down, though there are critical blibs around the 10pm to 1am slots iirc.
But if you measure injury accidents per kilometer travelled then the rate may well be higher during the night since fewer are travelling.
I have heard of people being flashed at night by fixed cameras. I suspect the many locations will have used up their film stock in day light hours if they are serviced in the morning and so have nothing to capture images come the night time. There will be exceptions, but a camera site producing good regular income would need to be replenished daily. Less cost effective if it takes 2 or 3 days to use the film.
I have also heard of scamera vans being deployed at night, though not seen one myself. I did see, some years ago, 2 plod parked up at the side of the road with a camera just as it was getting dark. Very hard to spot that one! Especially as they were in a Volvo Est. parked on the wide pavement outside a factory and facing the oncoming traffic - so little or no reflective stuff to show up in the headlights.
The downside of night enforcement is, presumably, the cost of overtime and the cost of suitable camera equipment and filters to deal with glaring headlights and so on. I would also guess that, in the main, regular Joe contributors to the coffers are not driving as quickly as their perception of appropriate speed will be adjusted downwards.
There may also be a Health and Safety consideration or two for the operators ...
As for night time - it depends what figures you are presenting. A count of accidents would be down, though there are critical blibs around the 10pm to 1am slots iirc.
But if you measure injury accidents per kilometer travelled then the rate may well be higher during the night since fewer are travelling.
I have heard of people being flashed at night by fixed cameras. I suspect the many locations will have used up their film stock in day light hours if they are serviced in the morning and so have nothing to capture images come the night time. There will be exceptions, but a camera site producing good regular income would need to be replenished daily. Less cost effective if it takes 2 or 3 days to use the film.
I have also heard of scamera vans being deployed at night, though not seen one myself. I did see, some years ago, 2 plod parked up at the side of the road with a camera just as it was getting dark. Very hard to spot that one! Especially as they were in a Volvo Est. parked on the wide pavement outside a factory and facing the oncoming traffic - so little or no reflective stuff to show up in the headlights.
The downside of night enforcement is, presumably, the cost of overtime and the cost of suitable camera equipment and filters to deal with glaring headlights and so on. I would also guess that, in the main, regular Joe contributors to the coffers are not driving as quickly as their perception of appropriate speed will be adjusted downwards.
There may also be a Health and Safety consideration or two for the operators ...
neil.b said:
That was the point of my question. Common sense (or intuition, call it what you like) would suggest, as Sommerset SCP have kindly confirmed, that more accidents occur at night.
But, you never see camera vans out at night and I don't know anyone who's had a NIP from a fixed camera at night either.
Can anyone confirm that all types of fixed cameras work at night? I've read that lasers speed detectors don't work in the dark....
From the quotes above I understand them to be saying that more accidents happen during the day (there is a lot more traffic), but at night the 'rate' is higher - ie. less traffic and less accidents at night but as a percentage a higher accident rate than the day.
And yes there is no restriction on the operation of any detection equipment in the dark other than the eyeballs of the operator (in the case of mobile lasers, vascar, etc.). Fixed cameras dont use lasers.
This is a bit too much of a summary for a full picture but it's the best I can find in a hurry.
Detail for 2003 should be available from a similar URL.
www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_control/documents/contentservertemplate/dft_index.hcst?n=11567&l=5
Detail for 2003 should be available from a similar URL.
www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_control/documents/contentservertemplate/dft_index.hcst?n=11567&l=5
I asked a similar question to Northumbria Scammers. I asked if their vans weren't used in poor weather and at night because the equipment wasn't good enough to get accurate readings. They said that gatsos operate 24hrs a day and their vans work in the rain. No mention of whether or not they are used in bad weather or at night. Strange that.
They are also only ever deployed at around lunchtime.
They are also only ever deployed at around lunchtime.
neil.b said:
That was the point of my question. Common sense (or intuition, call it what you like) would suggest, as Sommerset SCP have kindly confirmed, that more accidents occur at night.
I wouldn't take anything printed on a SCP's website as factual mate! They cherry pick and manipulate all the stats to suit their requirements.
As has been said , if they are measuring accidents per Km travelled then they could say more happen at night, simply because there's not many vehicles on the roads.
I wonder what percentage of total accidents happen at night? I would guess many many less than in daytime.
I think it was the AA that said a few weeks ago that most accidents happen at rush hour on a Friday afternoon, followed by rush hour on a Monday morning.
Pretty obvious really!
SCP said:Now they are twisting the meaning of the statistics. People usually interpret 'rate' as ‘the number of occurrences in a given time’, not ‘the number of occurrences for a given number of occurrences’ (the latter actually obviously being the description the SCPs have adopted but without actually saying so).
The accident rate doubles at night, particularly late in the evening and in the early hours.
SCP said:So how exactly do speed cameras fight against these drunk drivers, tired drivers and those driving inappropriately in reduced visibility conditions?
This is due to higher vehicle speed, because there is less traffic, more alcohol consumption, tiredness and reduced visibility. Respect for speed limits is just as important at night, if not, more so.
Also, is it me or do joyriders (and other dangerously driving criminals) usually come out to play at night?
Here are some figures reported for 2003 relating to whether an injury collision occurred in Daylight or Darkness.
www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_control/documents/contentservertemplate/dft_index.hcst?n=11578&l=5
Now whilst this is interesting (as are a few variations on this report to be found at the same location) it does not inform us about the collision rate a peak danger times - for example the 'leaving work' period where some of the year if is Daylight and some of the year darkness.
On the other hand we can get extreme conditions where the weather provides us with darkness in the middle of a summer's day - so quite how we make the numbers unambiguous I am not sure.
www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_control/documents/contentservertemplate/dft_index.hcst?n=11578&l=5
Now whilst this is interesting (as are a few variations on this report to be found at the same location) it does not inform us about the collision rate a peak danger times - for example the 'leaving work' period where some of the year if is Daylight and some of the year darkness.
On the other hand we can get extreme conditions where the weather provides us with darkness in the middle of a summer's day - so quite how we make the numbers unambiguous I am not sure.
smeggy said:
Firstly, which types of speed cameras work in the darkness?
All of them (except perhaps VASCAR), though I don't know how Lidar (mobile site) operators could possibly form a 'prior opinion' during the hours of darkness.
Although the speed measuring device works at night, how would they obtain a photograph of your number plate?
I believe it is the LTI 20-20 that must not be used in the rain, I would think any laser-based device would be at risk of erroneous readings in wet conditions
kevinday said:
Firstly, which types of speed cameras work in the darkness?
All of them (except perhaps VASCAR), though I don't know how Lidar (mobile site) operators could possibly form a 'prior opinion' during the hours of darkness.
Although the speed measuring device works at night, how would they obtain a photograph of your number plate?
They could use ANPR readers, but I don't know if these are approved for use at Lidar sites as there is a (very small?) chance that the ANPR IR strobe could interfere with the Lidar measurements.
……..or they could just pull the offender and take their details.
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