Can you legally "detain" a clearly mentally ill person?
Discussion
For uninteresting reasons, I was just contemplating what I would do if I found a frail and clearly mental teenager "playing in traffic" and I think that morally I would have little option but to detain them for their own safety. Kind of like a citizens arrest, but for being mental and a clear danger to themselves rather than committing a crime per se.
Can you do this legally if you're a member of the public or strictly speaking do you have to let them kill themselves?
Can you do this legally if you're a member of the public or strictly speaking do you have to let them kill themselves?
Have a read here,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue
and here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
and the various links mentioned, as a starting point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue
and here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
and the various links mentioned, as a starting point.
I don't know the details of the law(s) that might apply, in the UK presumably? But as suggested above I expect you would not be penalised for reasonable intervention to protect life and wellbeing of another.
Also don't know what powers the police have, but assume to atleast the above duty if care type interventions.
Then as said, if the individual is seen to fulfill the requirements, they could be sectioned by a doctor (psychiatrist) and amhp.
Also don't know what powers the police have, but assume to atleast the above duty if care type interventions.
Then as said, if the individual is seen to fulfill the requirements, they could be sectioned by a doctor (psychiatrist) and amhp.
dhutch said:
I don't know the details of the law(s) that might apply, in the UK presumably? But as suggested above I expect you would not be penalised for reasonable intervention to protect life and wellbeing of another.
Also don't know what powers the police have, but assume to atleast the above duty if care type interventions.
Then as said, if the individual is seen to fulfill the requirements, they could be sectioned by a doctor (psychiatrist) and amhp.
Agreed, if detaining someone to prevent harm to themselves/others from a position of a genuinely and reasonably held belief then it's unlikely you'd come unstuck but there's a lot to think about (if this is a genuine question). How much force is it going to take to detain them? Are you likely to cause more harm etc. Is it safer to follow and direct Police? Also don't know what powers the police have, but assume to atleast the above duty if care type interventions.
Then as said, if the individual is seen to fulfill the requirements, they could be sectioned by a doctor (psychiatrist) and amhp.
Police have various powers to detain including for mental health reasons, once detailed the person is taken for assessment and sectioned if needed or released.
Police.....can detain someone as a form of protective custody if they assess a danger to that person or others or damage to property.
Dealing with people who might have mental health issues is not easy.
Firstly the officers are not professional mental health experts but have a certain level of guidance/ basic training. I worked in ops and had calls involving such incidents from the person themselves or bystanders. The primary aim is the safety of them and others.
A common option was to take them into protective custody until mental health experts could take over. Not ideal but often the most practical option. Some incidents could and did escalate dramatically.
A good result......I had a call from someone on a bridge over a busy road threatening to jump. Managed to calm him until officers arrived to help him. A “call for help”? Possibly but you don’t really know.
A bad result.......a police dog was killed by a mentally ill man who had assaulted someone and when police arrived at his farm he destroyed two police cars before going into a barn. The dog was killed by him when it was sent in as was the norm.
As for a civilian doing something. Could be very dangerous. It could range from just talking/calming the person to full on physical restraint. A massive range of circumstances that can change like flicking a switch.
You can speculate about any number of circumstances ( child in traffic to armed ( knife/baseball bat or anything), putting yourself at risk by wading into a pond/river to get to them.
The basic question is what would be deemed as reasonable actions, as with a self defence scenario.
Not an easy thing to assess in the heat of the moment.
Dealing with people who might have mental health issues is not easy.
Firstly the officers are not professional mental health experts but have a certain level of guidance/ basic training. I worked in ops and had calls involving such incidents from the person themselves or bystanders. The primary aim is the safety of them and others.
A common option was to take them into protective custody until mental health experts could take over. Not ideal but often the most practical option. Some incidents could and did escalate dramatically.
A good result......I had a call from someone on a bridge over a busy road threatening to jump. Managed to calm him until officers arrived to help him. A “call for help”? Possibly but you don’t really know.
A bad result.......a police dog was killed by a mentally ill man who had assaulted someone and when police arrived at his farm he destroyed two police cars before going into a barn. The dog was killed by him when it was sent in as was the norm.
As for a civilian doing something. Could be very dangerous. It could range from just talking/calming the person to full on physical restraint. A massive range of circumstances that can change like flicking a switch.
You can speculate about any number of circumstances ( child in traffic to armed ( knife/baseball bat or anything), putting yourself at risk by wading into a pond/river to get to them.
The basic question is what would be deemed as reasonable actions, as with a self defence scenario.
Not an easy thing to assess in the heat of the moment.
sospan said:
Police.....can detain someone as a form of protective custody if they assess a danger to that person or others or damage to property.
Dealing with people who might have mental health issues is not easy.
Firstly the officers are not professional mental health experts but have a certain level of guidance/ basic training. I worked in ops and had calls involving such incidents from the person themselves or bystanders. The primary aim is the safety of them and others.
A common option was to take them into protective custody until mental health experts could take over. Not ideal but often the most practical option. Some incidents could and did escalate dramatically.
A good result......I had a call from someone on a bridge over a busy road threatening to jump. Managed to calm him until officers arrived to help him. A “call for help”? Possibly but you don’t really know.
A bad result.......a police dog was killed by a mentally ill man who had assaulted someone and when police arrived at his farm he destroyed two police cars before going into a barn. The dog was killed by him when it was sent in as was the norm.
As for a civilian doing something. Could be very dangerous. It could range from just talking/calming the person to full on physical restraint. A massive range of circumstances that can change like flicking a switch.
You can speculate about any number of circumstances ( child in traffic to armed ( knife/baseball bat or anything), putting yourself at risk by wading into a pond/river to get to them.
The basic question is what would be deemed as reasonable actions, as with a self defence scenario.
Not an easy thing to assess in the heat of the moment.
All of this and so much more......... It is an incredibly ill-defined area of law as there are so many variables and no instance is ever the same due to the volatility and unpredictability of mentally unstable subjects.Dealing with people who might have mental health issues is not easy.
Firstly the officers are not professional mental health experts but have a certain level of guidance/ basic training. I worked in ops and had calls involving such incidents from the person themselves or bystanders. The primary aim is the safety of them and others.
A common option was to take them into protective custody until mental health experts could take over. Not ideal but often the most practical option. Some incidents could and did escalate dramatically.
A good result......I had a call from someone on a bridge over a busy road threatening to jump. Managed to calm him until officers arrived to help him. A “call for help”? Possibly but you don’t really know.
A bad result.......a police dog was killed by a mentally ill man who had assaulted someone and when police arrived at his farm he destroyed two police cars before going into a barn. The dog was killed by him when it was sent in as was the norm.
As for a civilian doing something. Could be very dangerous. It could range from just talking/calming the person to full on physical restraint. A massive range of circumstances that can change like flicking a switch.
You can speculate about any number of circumstances ( child in traffic to armed ( knife/baseball bat or anything), putting yourself at risk by wading into a pond/river to get to them.
The basic question is what would be deemed as reasonable actions, as with a self defence scenario.
Not an easy thing to assess in the heat of the moment.
I know of a case where a man (6ft, 120kg, boxer/rugby player) was attacked by his knife-wielding daughter (70kg, 5ft 5"), called police, attending officer also attacked (no injury in either case), daughter then turned knife threatening to kill herself, took both men all their effort to disarm her (the strength of a mentally ill person in distress must never be underestimated!!). Police officer arrested her and then tried to get her sectioned under section 47 of the Mental Heath Act and was refused as deemed not to be serious enough!!!
Therefore, as a member of the public, you should call the appropriate authorities.
Police have powers under sec 136 mental health act, if you are in a public place you can be sectioned and taken to a place of safety upto 24 hours, usually means they goto local metal hospital or A&E for assessment. Before 136'ing someone we usually speak to the district MH nurse who is sat at the station or out on patrol with a cop already, then there is a helpline number we need to ring to ensure we are doing everything correctly, bit of a pain when you have someone balooning off in the back of the van though.
Also have powers under 135 but that has to have a warrant and mental health professional in tow and they can take you from your home etc.
Member of the public detaining someone at the scene for their own safety while they wait for police wouldnt be an issue but the danger to you as that person may lash out or run into the road etc can be pretty high.
To be fair mental health training for the police is crap sadly
Also have powers under 135 but that has to have a warrant and mental health professional in tow and they can take you from your home etc.
Member of the public detaining someone at the scene for their own safety while they wait for police wouldnt be an issue but the danger to you as that person may lash out or run into the road etc can be pretty high.
To be fair mental health training for the police is crap sadly
You have no legal right to detain anyone. However, intervening to protect someone you fear is at risk until appropriate professionals arrive is unlikely to see you prosecuted.
Police can detain someone suspected of being at risk under Section 47 of Mental Health Act, or remove them to a "place of safety", usually their own home, although it could be A&E, the police station, relative's home, etc.
Detention under MHA for assessment can be done by doctor and approved mental health professional (usually a social worker), and for treatment by Home Office approved doctor (usually the psychiatrist), another doctor (usually patient's GP) and an approved mental health professional. This can only be for treatment of the mental illness - you cannot put people under section to treat a physical illness. During my training (I am a retired GP) it was pointed out to me that the MHA is the only way, outside of the police and courts, that you can legally deprive a person of their liberty, so it is quite a responsibility.
People have the right to make unwise and unsafe decisions if they are judged to have capacity, and detaining a person under the MHA is only applicable if a person has a formal diagnosis of a mental illness or their is definite suspicion of a mental illness. Acute intoxication, for example, is not regarded as a mental illness. I've seen people without mental illness behave in many odd ways, some of them risky. It's quite unusual that people are "clearly mentally ill". Usually only those suffering from mania or hypomania are obviously ill - like the chap I once admitted to the ward who had been standing in the middle of the road directing traffic, with a cross painted across his chest in bright red lipstick proclaiming himself to be Saint John. He was detained by the police under section 47, and brought to the ward under section 3 for assessment. He soon settled on the ward and complied with treatment so the section was rescinded after a few days. It's considered bad practice to allow a section to run until it expires (IIRC 28 days for section 3).
I am not an expert in the MHA, although I've been involved in sectioning people over the years, so I am happy to be corrected by those with better or more current knowledge!
Police can detain someone suspected of being at risk under Section 47 of Mental Health Act, or remove them to a "place of safety", usually their own home, although it could be A&E, the police station, relative's home, etc.
Detention under MHA for assessment can be done by doctor and approved mental health professional (usually a social worker), and for treatment by Home Office approved doctor (usually the psychiatrist), another doctor (usually patient's GP) and an approved mental health professional. This can only be for treatment of the mental illness - you cannot put people under section to treat a physical illness. During my training (I am a retired GP) it was pointed out to me that the MHA is the only way, outside of the police and courts, that you can legally deprive a person of their liberty, so it is quite a responsibility.
People have the right to make unwise and unsafe decisions if they are judged to have capacity, and detaining a person under the MHA is only applicable if a person has a formal diagnosis of a mental illness or their is definite suspicion of a mental illness. Acute intoxication, for example, is not regarded as a mental illness. I've seen people without mental illness behave in many odd ways, some of them risky. It's quite unusual that people are "clearly mentally ill". Usually only those suffering from mania or hypomania are obviously ill - like the chap I once admitted to the ward who had been standing in the middle of the road directing traffic, with a cross painted across his chest in bright red lipstick proclaiming himself to be Saint John. He was detained by the police under section 47, and brought to the ward under section 3 for assessment. He soon settled on the ward and complied with treatment so the section was rescinded after a few days. It's considered bad practice to allow a section to run until it expires (IIRC 28 days for section 3).
I am not an expert in the MHA, although I've been involved in sectioning people over the years, so I am happy to be corrected by those with better or more current knowledge!
Section 47 of the Act provides for the transfer of a prisoner from prison to hospital for the purposes of obtaining treatment. You must be a convicted person and have a diagnosable mental illness or disorder.
The transfer direction is issued by the secretary of state (representative in practice), nothing to do with Police at any point in the process.
On completion of treatment, returned to prison.
The MHA can be called upon to enforce treatments for a physical illness in certain circumstances - almost always where a mental illness is producing a situation where treatment is being declined eg, life threatening complications arising from starvation in annorexia. If there is an established causal mental illness/disorder then best practice is to use MHA
The English Common Law reinforces the basic principle of preservation of life and there are of course potential Article 2 and Article 8 issues as well as a need to consider treatment in the absence of consent secondary to a lack of capacity.
The transfer direction is issued by the secretary of state (representative in practice), nothing to do with Police at any point in the process.
On completion of treatment, returned to prison.
The MHA can be called upon to enforce treatments for a physical illness in certain circumstances - almost always where a mental illness is producing a situation where treatment is being declined eg, life threatening complications arising from starvation in annorexia. If there is an established causal mental illness/disorder then best practice is to use MHA
The English Common Law reinforces the basic principle of preservation of life and there are of course potential Article 2 and Article 8 issues as well as a need to consider treatment in the absence of consent secondary to a lack of capacity.
Edited by paulmakin on Wednesday 3rd May 22:01
Sec 47 Memtal Health Act only applies to prisons.
The Police can DETAIN, not section, using Sec 136 Mental Health Act.
Ideally a mental health practitioner should be consulted with prior to detaining, but that's not always possible.
The patient is then taken to a place of safety. In extreme cases, this can be a Police cell. The patient should be taken to a secure place of safety for an assessment, but there aren't enough of these in the country. Because of this shortage, the Police often have to take the patient to A&E as a place of safety, and wait for an AMP and Dr to conduct the assessment. But, there aren't enough of these, so the patient and Police are forced to wait hrs.
Sometimes a secure place of safety will become available whilst waiting for the AMP and Dr, which means the patient and Police might have to travel miles to that place of safety. Once at the secure place of safety, the patient is handed over to the NHS Trust for assessment.
Once an assessment has been made in A&E, if the patient needs to be sectioned, the patient becomes the responsibility of the NHS Trust, so sometimes the AMP and Dr will delay making the decision because the Police remain responsible.
The furthest I've had to travel to a secure place of safety is 41 miles.
As the detained person is a patient, an Ambulance should be called to transport them to the place of safety, whether that be A&E or a secure place of safety.
Should the patient need to be transferred from A&E to a secure place of safety PRIOR to an assessment, this should also be done by Ambulance, but Ambulance services and NHS Trust will make every effort to leave this to the police.
To answer the OP - unless the person appearing to be suffering with a mental health disorder is placing themselves in immediate danger DON'T GET INVOLVED. Observe and direct the emergency services to them.
Edit - if the patient requires medical attention this takes priority, but the Police are still responsible until the assessment is made or a place of safety becomes available.
If the patient is intoxicated or under the influence of drugs, an assessment can't be conducted until they are sober, but the police are still responsible until the assessment is made or a place of safety becomes available.
The Ambulance service have different powers under the Mental Capacity Act, but this is for treatment and doesn't include detaining the patient.
The Police can DETAIN, not section, using Sec 136 Mental Health Act.
Ideally a mental health practitioner should be consulted with prior to detaining, but that's not always possible.
The patient is then taken to a place of safety. In extreme cases, this can be a Police cell. The patient should be taken to a secure place of safety for an assessment, but there aren't enough of these in the country. Because of this shortage, the Police often have to take the patient to A&E as a place of safety, and wait for an AMP and Dr to conduct the assessment. But, there aren't enough of these, so the patient and Police are forced to wait hrs.
Sometimes a secure place of safety will become available whilst waiting for the AMP and Dr, which means the patient and Police might have to travel miles to that place of safety. Once at the secure place of safety, the patient is handed over to the NHS Trust for assessment.
Once an assessment has been made in A&E, if the patient needs to be sectioned, the patient becomes the responsibility of the NHS Trust, so sometimes the AMP and Dr will delay making the decision because the Police remain responsible.
The furthest I've had to travel to a secure place of safety is 41 miles.
As the detained person is a patient, an Ambulance should be called to transport them to the place of safety, whether that be A&E or a secure place of safety.
Should the patient need to be transferred from A&E to a secure place of safety PRIOR to an assessment, this should also be done by Ambulance, but Ambulance services and NHS Trust will make every effort to leave this to the police.
To answer the OP - unless the person appearing to be suffering with a mental health disorder is placing themselves in immediate danger DON'T GET INVOLVED. Observe and direct the emergency services to them.
Edit - if the patient requires medical attention this takes priority, but the Police are still responsible until the assessment is made or a place of safety becomes available.
If the patient is intoxicated or under the influence of drugs, an assessment can't be conducted until they are sober, but the police are still responsible until the assessment is made or a place of safety becomes available.
The Ambulance service have different powers under the Mental Capacity Act, but this is for treatment and doesn't include detaining the patient.
Edited by Nibbles_bits on Thursday 4th May 00:02
Nibbles_bits said:
The furthest I've had to travel to a secure place of safety is 41 miles.
(Btw on this - Mrs Foolish couldn't help me with the legalities of this question but she works in a mental hospital* and 41 miles sounds like nothing - she has patients from hundreds of miles away, indeed I think it's very rare for them to be within 41 miles!)*her experiences why I said frail teenager lol
Edited by Somewhatfoolish on Thursday 4th May 01:01
Nibbles_bits said:
Sec 47 Memtal Health Act only applies to prisons.
The Police can DETAIN, not section, using Sec 136 Mental Health Act.
Ideally a mental health practitioner should be consulted with prior to detaining, but that's not always possible.
Thank you for the clarification and correction. I meant Sec 136... I don't know where I got 47 from!The Police can DETAIN, not section, using Sec 136 Mental Health Act.
Ideally a mental health practitioner should be consulted with prior to detaining, but that's not always possible.
Edited by Nibbles_bits on Thursday 4th May 00:02
Nibbles_bits said:
Sec 47 Memtal Health Act only applies to prisons.
The Police can DETAIN, not section, using Sec 136 Mental Health Act.
Ideally a mental health practitioner should be consulted with prior to detaining, but that's not always possible.
Agree with all you say but detaining someone under Section 136 of the MHA is "sectioning them" The Police can DETAIN, not section, using Sec 136 Mental Health Act.
Ideally a mental health practitioner should be consulted with prior to detaining, but that's not always possible.
We have a MH Hospital on division but sometimes have to jump through hoops before they accept someone into the 136 suite.
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