Camberwell new rd/denmark hill/camberwell church st box junc
Discussion
Travelling from Denmark hill into Camberwell Church street
Will appreciate help - foolishly stopped at a box junction today when turning right - not sure if an exemption applies as cars ahead were also turn right but wasn't stopped due to oncoming cars
dashcam front and rear video here - will I get a fine for this? Assume they have cameras here
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p2196tj415eyi4x/AAC2h39...
GSV:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4739774,-0.09312,3...
It was the 2nd box that I got caught up in. Another car did come from behind me and take the place to the left ahead of me and they managed to avoid stopping in the box because of that
Does anyone know if this box junction has camera enforcement? I have not been able to find any cases in the London Tribunal register
Will appreciate help - foolishly stopped at a box junction today when turning right - not sure if an exemption applies as cars ahead were also turn right but wasn't stopped due to oncoming cars
dashcam front and rear video here - will I get a fine for this? Assume they have cameras here
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p2196tj415eyi4x/AAC2h39...
GSV:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4739774,-0.09312,3...
It was the 2nd box that I got caught up in. Another car did come from behind me and take the place to the left ahead of me and they managed to avoid stopping in the box because of that
Does anyone know if this box junction has camera enforcement? I have not been able to find any cases in the London Tribunal register
Edited by taffer87 on Sunday 28th May 10:44
Edited by taffer87 on Sunday 28th May 10:46
don't know the answer to your question about cameras, but the main thing is you are not prohibited from stopping in a yellow box junction if you are turning right and waiting for traffic to clear
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-...
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-...
Thanks yes, unfortunately, the truck/van ahead of me managed to clear the 2nd box junction so not sure if I can rely on that exemption. The only thing I can think of is the car behind me managed to make an interesting maneuver and jump ahead temporarily and take the space to the side of truck/van ahead of me also clearing the box junction so maybe there is a case that I was not forced to stop .. so no contravention
The links you have put here are not working this morning however TFL interpret the Highway Code rule as that you must, when turning right, immediately follow the car in front into the box junction and be prevented from exiting by that car.
You cannot arrive at a junction where a car is already stationary (waiting to turn right) and drive into the junction and stop behind the waiting car.
You cannot arrive at a junction where a car is already stationary (waiting to turn right) and drive into the junction and stop behind the waiting car.
Orang said:
The links you have put here are not working this morning however TFL interpret the Highway Code rule as that you must, when turning right, immediately follow the car in front into the box junction and be prevented from exiting by that car.
You cannot arrive at a junction where a car is already stationary (waiting to turn right) and drive into the junction and stop behind the waiting car.
I think you have misinterpreted TFL's words there.You cannot arrive at a junction where a car is already stationary (waiting to turn right) and drive into the junction and stop behind the waiting car.
They say you can follow another car into the box, but should not do so if after it has turned right it may prevent you from doing so. I.E. If it has to immediately stop after turning right so blocking the exit for you. If there is no risk of this happening then you would be ok to follow it in.
Orang said:
The links you have put here are not working this morning however TFL interpret the Highway Code rule as that you must, when turning right, immediately follow the car in front into the box junction and be prevented from exiting by that car.
You cannot arrive at a junction where a car is already stationary (waiting to turn right) and drive into the junction and stop behind the waiting car.
It doesn’t say that thoughYou cannot arrive at a junction where a car is already stationary (waiting to turn right) and drive into the junction and stop behind the waiting car.
TFL say
You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right
Orang said:
The links you have put here are not working this morning however TFL interpret the Highway Code rule as that you must, when turning right, immediately follow the car in front into the box junction and be prevented from exiting by that car.
You cannot arrive at a junction where a car is already stationary (waiting to turn right) and drive into the junction and stop behind the waiting car.
Repasted links in original post so hopefully you can see the video now. It seems like this exact scenario happened You cannot arrive at a junction where a car is already stationary (waiting to turn right) and drive into the junction and stop behind the waiting car.
Both Dropbox and GSV link should work now
Edited by taffer87 on Sunday 28th May 15:40
Ah, unfortunately, seems like TFL does enforce this location: "CAMBERWELL NEW RD JCN DENMARK HILL (NORTH BOX)" and there is one case 2220134124 in the last 2 months in London Tribunals' register of appeals. There are also a few cases for the south box under location "CAMBERWELL NEW RD JCN DENMARK HILL (SOUTH BOX)"
Bang to rights I'm afraid. I don't think the black A1 got away with it though and didn't impact you. Started behind you, pulled alongside in a failed attempt to not commit the same offence then ended up behind you
I did wonder what on earth the silver SUV was doing though, all becomes clear in the rearward view
I did wonder what on earth the silver SUV was doing though, all becomes clear in the rearward view
Ok but, as mentioned, the restriction doesn't apply if you are only stopped in the box because you are turning right and waiting for traffic:
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 said:
Section 11(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
[...]
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
[...]
K4sper said:
Ok but, as mentioned, the restriction doesn't apply if you are only stopped in the box because you are turning right and waiting for traffic:
The last word you have quoted is 'and' so you must consider the next paragraphThe Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 said:
Section 11(3) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not, in respect of a box junction within sub-paragraph (6)(a) of the definition of that expression, apply to a person who—
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
[...]
(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and
[...]
'stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn'
You weren't stopped from completing the right turn by either of those examples, you were stopped by vehicles blocking your exit from the box
(the ones queuing after the junction before you entered the box, not just the one directly in front of you that you were behind on the box)
yeah i think it will be hard to argue the lorry/truck ahead had not completed their turn
Also not sure if I can say I wanted to take the space to the left of the vehicle ahead -- which was taken by the car behind me ..
Probably only hope is TFL and the leasing company will mess up transferring the liability of PCN to me or some other procedural error
Also not sure if I can say I wanted to take the space to the left of the vehicle ahead -- which was taken by the car behind me ..
Probably only hope is TFL and the leasing company will mess up transferring the liability of PCN to me or some other procedural error
Is this box junction compliant btw? are there any rules that need to be followed in design that may make this non-compliant?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denmark+Hill,+Lo...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Denmark+Hill,+Lo...
K4sper said:
Quoting from there - TFL said:
How to use a yellow box junction
You may enter a yellow box junction when your exit is clear and there is enough space on the other side of the junction for your vehicle to clear the box completely without stopping.
You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Do not simply follow the vehicle in front as it may stop and prevent your exit and don't let other drivers pressure you to enter the box when a clear exit is not available.
So at that junction, because you cannot see if there is space on the exit, TFL would expect only a single vehicle turning right to enter the yellow box at any one time, with any following vehicles to wait until the first vehicle had completely cleared the box before moving into it.You may enter a yellow box junction when your exit is clear and there is enough space on the other side of the junction for your vehicle to clear the box completely without stopping.
You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Do not simply follow the vehicle in front as it may stop and prevent your exit and don't let other drivers pressure you to enter the box when a clear exit is not available.
Based on that, how many vehicles are going to get through on each green phase? One?
I got a ticket about 5 years ago at that junction, my exit was clear and however as I proceeded the person on the inside lane cut across to my lane leaving me stopped with the back quarter of my car still in the box. Horrible junction that, sorry OP I think you will be in for a ticket,
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff