Co-habitation Agreement - retired unmarried couple
Discussion
Hello,
I'm looking for a little advice here - a retired lady I know has asked me for some, and her preconception is that this is a "£100 to a cheap lawyer" situation....but I'm not sure..
The background is: she is retired, divorced, mother of 3 grown-up daughters and doting grandmother of 4. Her house (S.London suburbs) is all paid off, in her name, worth a few quid (north of £500k). She doesn't have much in savings or pensions. She has a will, leaving everything to her 3 kids. The partner (below) does not get a mention.
After divorce, she lived alone for 10+ years and now she has a live-in male partner, for the last 3 or 4 years. He's also retired, divorced, has 5 grown-up offspring and a few grandchildren. Some in UK, some overseas. He has his own paid-off house in England, which he rents out, and seemingly some decent savings and investments. No idea about a will, but I'll presume if he has one, it'll be relevant to the pre-cohabiting situation.
They have a verbal agreement - i.e. her house/money is hers (even though he's contributing rent) and his is his. No claims either way. In terms of day-to-day expenses, they share the costs, but holidays and treat etc he pays much more than half. He's very happy to do that and they are happy together. They are in their 70s, and have a nice happy retired life, doing some things together and some apart.
She has asked me to help her get some kind of document formed that formalises this. I don't know why now, but I think that one of the offspring somewhere along the line has mentioned the "need" for it. I suspect that perhaps someone feels their inheritance is under threat.
My humble opinion is that, seeing as the agreement is generally one that the benefactors will be happy about, then it probably doesn't need to be a lawyer-drafted thing. I spoke to a family lawyer who estimated £1000+ for the drafting, plus independent legal assurance from each side. I think that level of cost would put them off.
Do any of you have any experience or advice on this?
I understand the law currently isn't perfectly clear on this, but may change in the next few years.
Anything you can add, would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
D
I'm looking for a little advice here - a retired lady I know has asked me for some, and her preconception is that this is a "£100 to a cheap lawyer" situation....but I'm not sure..
The background is: she is retired, divorced, mother of 3 grown-up daughters and doting grandmother of 4. Her house (S.London suburbs) is all paid off, in her name, worth a few quid (north of £500k). She doesn't have much in savings or pensions. She has a will, leaving everything to her 3 kids. The partner (below) does not get a mention.
After divorce, she lived alone for 10+ years and now she has a live-in male partner, for the last 3 or 4 years. He's also retired, divorced, has 5 grown-up offspring and a few grandchildren. Some in UK, some overseas. He has his own paid-off house in England, which he rents out, and seemingly some decent savings and investments. No idea about a will, but I'll presume if he has one, it'll be relevant to the pre-cohabiting situation.
They have a verbal agreement - i.e. her house/money is hers (even though he's contributing rent) and his is his. No claims either way. In terms of day-to-day expenses, they share the costs, but holidays and treat etc he pays much more than half. He's very happy to do that and they are happy together. They are in their 70s, and have a nice happy retired life, doing some things together and some apart.
She has asked me to help her get some kind of document formed that formalises this. I don't know why now, but I think that one of the offspring somewhere along the line has mentioned the "need" for it. I suspect that perhaps someone feels their inheritance is under threat.
My humble opinion is that, seeing as the agreement is generally one that the benefactors will be happy about, then it probably doesn't need to be a lawyer-drafted thing. I spoke to a family lawyer who estimated £1000+ for the drafting, plus independent legal assurance from each side. I think that level of cost would put them off.
Do any of you have any experience or advice on this?
I understand the law currently isn't perfectly clear on this, but may change in the next few years.
Anything you can add, would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
D
I’m not one for handing money to solicitors for the sake of it, but this does feel like a situation where there is sufficient interest to do things properly.
The worst outcome would be for the parties to seek to rely on an agreement that is not watertight, particularly as the likelihood this could well be at a time of emotional stress- be that relationship breakup, or the death of one of the partners.
From what you’ve said there shouldn’t be any disagreement or contentious issues, which will make things easier. It doesn’t require a top city law firm, this should be well within the capabilities of a general high street solicitor, so shop around and perhaps take advantage of someone offering a free first appointment. If they turn up with a well written, comprehensive list of points they want in the agreement they are more likely to get someone to do the work for a reasonable fixed fee. It will be a lot more than £100, but I would expect less than £1000.
The worst outcome would be for the parties to seek to rely on an agreement that is not watertight, particularly as the likelihood this could well be at a time of emotional stress- be that relationship breakup, or the death of one of the partners.
From what you’ve said there shouldn’t be any disagreement or contentious issues, which will make things easier. It doesn’t require a top city law firm, this should be well within the capabilities of a general high street solicitor, so shop around and perhaps take advantage of someone offering a free first appointment. If they turn up with a well written, comprehensive list of points they want in the agreement they are more likely to get someone to do the work for a reasonable fixed fee. It will be a lot more than £100, but I would expect less than £1000.
It's worth doing.
My grandfather had a similar arrangement (although they were married). When it came to selling the share in the bungalow there was a bit of a hooha when a dream estate agent valued to win an instruction, rather than a proper valuation. It all got a bit smelly for a little while.
My grandfather had a similar arrangement (although they were married). When it came to selling the share in the bungalow there was a bit of a hooha when a dream estate agent valued to win an instruction, rather than a proper valuation. It all got a bit smelly for a little while.
surveyor said:
My grandfather had a similar arrangement (although they were married).
So a totally different arrangement then. I'm going to buck the trend here and say don't bother. If he's paying some rent, get a rent book. Job done. They aren't married, he's just a tenant who (I assume) sleeps with his landlady. Sleeping with your landlord doesn't give a tenant any additional legal rights. Legally, he's a nobody. He has no claim on her stuff, and she has no claim on his. No different to anyone renting out a spare room.
I'm kind of on the same path as twig here. I'd start with them writing down the understanding first and see how it stacks up.
he problem though I'm thinking as Im typing, doesn't the agreement and the wills have to tie up especially with many descendants to worry about?
What state are their wills in?
he problem though I'm thinking as Im typing, doesn't the agreement and the wills have to tie up especially with many descendants to worry about?
What state are their wills in?
BertBert said:
I'm kind of on the same path as twig here. I'd start with them writing down the understanding first and see how it stacks up.
he problem though I'm thinking as Im typing, doesn't the agreement and the wills have to tie up especially with many descendants to worry about?
What state are their wills in?
Thanks - my assumption re: wills is - what's her's is her's to leave to who she pleases. A Cohabitation agreement's purpose would be to define what is "her's", and to close down any possibility of him (or people on his behalf) making a claim on her property. And vice versa of course.he problem though I'm thinking as Im typing, doesn't the agreement and the wills have to tie up especially with many descendants to worry about?
What state are their wills in?
My nan, lost my grandad aged 59. About 10 years later she met Joe. The nicest kindest bloke you'd ever hope to meet. He lived on a caravan park in Cleveleys, North of Blackpool, after an acrimonious divorce some years previous.
It was a great caravan. On my yearly summer visit, to stay with nan, she took me around for afternoon tea.
The problem with the caravan was that he couldn't live there for 3 months in the winter so, would get a 3 month let in a b&b which out of season was fairly cheap.
Anyway the next winter, my nan invited him to be her "lodger". He moved in, with lodgers agreement, and had his own separate bedroom. He then rented his caravan out to holiday makers, going in once a week to change the sheets and give it a clean.
Did he really use the spare room?
Was it just for show, and they were madly in love. They did everything together, went on holiday, (separate rooms or apartments with 2beds) trips out. But they kept up the pretence of him being just a Lodger, until he died many years later.
But that's the thing. There weren't married, they both had a copy of the lodgers agreement, and neither left the other anything in their will. But there's some lovely holiday photos.
It was a great caravan. On my yearly summer visit, to stay with nan, she took me around for afternoon tea.
The problem with the caravan was that he couldn't live there for 3 months in the winter so, would get a 3 month let in a b&b which out of season was fairly cheap.
Anyway the next winter, my nan invited him to be her "lodger". He moved in, with lodgers agreement, and had his own separate bedroom. He then rented his caravan out to holiday makers, going in once a week to change the sheets and give it a clean.
Did he really use the spare room?
Was it just for show, and they were madly in love. They did everything together, went on holiday, (separate rooms or apartments with 2beds) trips out. But they kept up the pretence of him being just a Lodger, until he died many years later.
But that's the thing. There weren't married, they both had a copy of the lodgers agreement, and neither left the other anything in their will. But there's some lovely holiday photos.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
surveyor said:
My grandfather had a similar arrangement (although they were married).
So a totally different arrangement then. I'm going to buck the trend here and say don't bother. If he's paying some rent, get a rent book. Job done. They aren't married, he's just a tenant who (I assume) sleeps with his landlady. Sleeping with your landlord doesn't give a tenant any additional legal rights. Legally, he's a nobody. He has no claim on her stuff, and she has no claim on his. No different to anyone renting out a spare room.
For me is do they want their grieving families to deal with the hassle or just get it sorted so they do not get the hassle?
TwigtheWonderkid said:
So a totally different arrangement then.
I'm going to buck the trend here and say don't bother. If he's paying some rent, get a rent book. Job done. They aren't married, he's just a tenant who (I assume) sleeps with his landlady. Sleeping with your landlord doesn't give a tenant any additional legal rights. Legally, he's a nobody. He has no claim on her stuff, and she has no claim on his. No different to anyone renting out a spare room.
In that situation I believe it would be fine. But the OP does not mention rent anywhere, other than the male partner renting out his own house.I'm going to buck the trend here and say don't bother. If he's paying some rent, get a rent book. Job done. They aren't married, he's just a tenant who (I assume) sleeps with his landlady. Sleeping with your landlord doesn't give a tenant any additional legal rights. Legally, he's a nobody. He has no claim on her stuff, and she has no claim on his. No different to anyone renting out a spare room.
I am not a legal expert, but would think that a formal 'rent a room' agreement with him paying a fixed amount per month would solve the issue. She must then pick up all the costs herself. Renting a room, including meals, would likely be okay. If they share an average £1000 per month at the moment, the rental agreement could be for £500.
I would suggest the general idea is discussed with a lawyer first.
This sounds like it needs defining now so that their wishes are followed once they are gone. That means being very clear about everything and that probably wants some professional help to ensure it is all covered in sufficient detail.
It would be a benefit and reassurance to both sides I would think.
It would be a benefit and reassurance to both sides I would think.
I’d have thought some sort of document reviewed by a lawyer would be useful. If for nothing else but to frame the conversation around what happens when one passes. For example, if the lady passes, how long does the chap have to vacate the house, what happens for items they have bought together etc. Little things can cause a lot of aggro later.
They need to get it documented, for peace of everyone's mind (and piece of if necessary) if nothing else. They also need advice on HMRC's interests _and_ healthcare decisions. The NHS probably will not recognise their status as each other's Next of Kin when treatment decisions are needed with their current arrangement, and the time to sort that out is not when the paddles are being charged for the 5th time, or not.
They should also, while they are sorting out such things, get Powers of Attorney in place with the preferred offspring. Again, better to sort that while of sound mind rather than when they are hiding cash in the Richard Osman novels, the biscuit tin, the sofas and the curtains.
They should also, while they are sorting out such things, get Powers of Attorney in place with the preferred offspring. Again, better to sort that while of sound mind rather than when they are hiding cash in the Richard Osman novels, the biscuit tin, the sofas and the curtains.
thepawbroon said:
Thanks all for the advice, I've spoken to a few Family Law solicitors locally, and have arranged a first appointment with one, and the lady in question.
If she balks at the cost then maybe the three kids could pay for it?It is well worth getting the arrangement formalized as whilst they may trust each other completely the same will almost certainly not apply to all 8 kids.
carl_w said:
If she balks at the cost then maybe the three kids could pay for it?
It is well worth getting the arrangement formalized as whilst they may trust each other completely the same will almost certainly not apply to all 8 kids.
Well yes, and there are indications of significant inheritance-related tension amongst the 5 children of the gentleman, who span 2 ex-wives and 3 continents / legal systems.....It is well worth getting the arrangement formalized as whilst they may trust each other completely the same will almost certainly not apply to all 8 kids.
MustangGT said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
So a totally different arrangement then.
I'm going to buck the trend here and say don't bother. If he's paying some rent, get a rent book. Job done. They aren't married, he's just a tenant who (I assume) sleeps with his landlady. Sleeping with your landlord doesn't give a tenant any additional legal rights. Legally, he's a nobody. He has no claim on her stuff, and she has no claim on his. No different to anyone renting out a spare room.
In that situation I believe it would be fine. But the OP does not mention rent anywhere, other than the male partner renting out his own house.I'm going to buck the trend here and say don't bother. If he's paying some rent, get a rent book. Job done. They aren't married, he's just a tenant who (I assume) sleeps with his landlady. Sleeping with your landlord doesn't give a tenant any additional legal rights. Legally, he's a nobody. He has no claim on her stuff, and she has no claim on his. No different to anyone renting out a spare room.
"They have a verbal agreement - i.e. her house/money is hers (even though he's contributing rent) and his is his."
TwigtheWonderkid said:
MustangGT said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
So a totally different arrangement then.
I'm going to buck the trend here and say don't bother. If he's paying some rent, get a rent book. Job done. They aren't married, he's just a tenant who (I assume) sleeps with his landlady. Sleeping with your landlord doesn't give a tenant any additional legal rights. Legally, he's a nobody. He has no claim on her stuff, and she has no claim on his. No different to anyone renting out a spare room.
In that situation I believe it would be fine. But the OP does not mention rent anywhere, other than the male partner renting out his own house.I'm going to buck the trend here and say don't bother. If he's paying some rent, get a rent book. Job done. They aren't married, he's just a tenant who (I assume) sleeps with his landlady. Sleeping with your landlord doesn't give a tenant any additional legal rights. Legally, he's a nobody. He has no claim on her stuff, and she has no claim on his. No different to anyone renting out a spare room.
"They have a verbal agreement - i.e. her house/money is hers (even though he's contributing rent) and his is his."
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