unqualified freehold title

[Whistle]

I have enquired about buying the leasehold for our house, it’s only £5.00 per year and has just over 900 years to run.

I suggested that it must be costing them more to administrate it than it’s actually worth. I also offered to pay all of the legal fees.

I paid £25.00 last week to cover for the next 5 years and made the request to buy it.

Can anyone shed any light on the response I have had below please as it makes no sense to me as have no idea what a unqualified freehold title is.
Just to note I own the property outright and I have the original deeds from the early 1930s

This is the response:

I regret that I am not in a position to sell you an unqualified freehold title.
When I took over the collection of the rents many years ago the previous owner was not able to sell several freehold titles to me as the deeds had been lost.
I therefore only have a possessory freehold title. I would be able to sell a similar title to you but the cost of applying to the land registry would be extremely high, likely to be in the access of £600.
As an alternative we could arrange to informally redeem the rent for a one off payment of £50.00 (less £25 already received) in exchange for which I would provide a certificate confirming that the rent is no longer payable.


Thanks.

[littleredrooster]

Whistle said:

I have enquired about buying the leasehold for our house, it’s only £5.00 per year and has just over 900 years to run.

I suggested that it must be costing them more to administrate it than it’s actually worth. I also offered to pay all of the legal fees.

I paid £25.00 last week to cover for the next 5 years and made the request to buy it.

Can anyone shed any light on the response I have had below please as it makes no sense to me as have no idea what a unqualified freehold title is.
Just to note I own the property outright and I have the original deeds from the early 1930s

This is the response:

I regret that I am not in a position to sell you an unqualified freehold title.
When I took over the collection of the rents many years ago the previous owner was not able to sell several freehold titles to me as the deeds had been lost.
I therefore only have a possessory freehold title. I would be able to sell a similar title to you but the cost of applying to the land registry would be extremely high, likely to be in the access of £600.
As an alternative we could arrange to informally redeem the rent for a one off payment of £50.00 (less £25 already received) in exchange for which I would provide a certificate confirming that the rent is no longer payable.
Thanks.

Given that he doesn't seem to know the difference between 'excess' and 'access', I wouldn't trust that he has a clue what he's on about, particularly as you have the original deeds. This may be difficult...

[Cyberprog]

I guess for me, I'd probably look to do things properly and go via the land registry route, the £600 it costs has got (in my book) to be worth more longer term to a buyer?

[Panamax]

littleredrooster said:

Given that he doesn't seem to know the difference between 'excess' and 'access', I wouldn't trust that he has a clue what he's on about, particularly as you have the original deeds.

^^^ This. Get a solicitor or forget it.

[konark]

Yeah spend thousands of pounds to save £5 a year.

Edited by konark on Tuesday 13th June 23:10

[Panamax]

konark said:

Yeah that's great advice, spend thousands of pounds to save £5 a year.

And your suggestion is......?

[Panamax]

Whistle said:

As an alternative we could arrange to informally redeem the rent for a one off payment of £50.00

Yeah, right.

[Whistle]

I have quite a large extension and not informed them so just thinking at some point this may become a problem when selling?

[elanfan]

The freeholder admits he doesn’t have the deeds. You say you have them so who is to say you or our forebears weren’t sold the title quite sometime ago. Maybe you’re owed a refund of many years ground rent.

[c.milton]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/upgradi...

In a nutshell, I would buy the possessory freehold title from the Freeholder, apply to HM Land Registry to register the possessory freehold title in my name and after the requisite period of time (20 years iirc), apply to update the possessory freehold title to absolute.

Some people would also suggest merging the absolute freehold title with your leasehold title and extinguishing the leasehold title altogether i.e. your property becomes "freehold". Beware - if you share access or services or have unusual party walls shared with other properties that are still leasehold, you should NOT extinguish your lease..

You will need a solicitor to investigate and deal with the possessory title really - its a bit trickier than normal sale/purchase transactions.

[QuickQuack]

konark said:

Yeah spend thousands of pounds to save £5 a year.

Edited by konark on Tuesday 13th June 23:10

It's not about saving £5 a year, it's about being able to control what happens to your property.

[bladebloke]

Whistle said:

I have enquired about buying the leasehold for our house, it’s only £5.00 per year and has just over 900 years to run.

I suggested that it must be costing them more to administrate it than it’s actually worth. I also offered to pay all of the legal fees.

I paid £25.00 last week to cover for the next 5 years and made the request to buy it.

Can anyone shed any light on the response I have had below please as it makes no sense to me as have no idea what a unqualified freehold title is.
Just to note I own the property outright and I have the original deeds from the early 1930s

This is the response:

I regret that I am not in a position to sell you an unqualified freehold title.
When I took over the collection of the rents many years ago the previous owner was not able to sell several freehold titles to me as the deeds had been lost.
I therefore only have a possessory freehold title. I would be able to sell a similar title to you but the cost of applying to the land registry would be extremely high, likely to be in the access of £600.
As an alternative we could arrange to informally redeem the rent for a one off payment of £50.00 (less £25 already received) in exchange for which I would provide a certificate confirming that the rent is no longer payable.


Thanks.

I think what he means is that he has no registered title at all. If he had possessory title then he could transfer that to you in exactly the same way as if it was land with title absolute. No big Land Registry fee for that.

Possessory title is basically where someone acquires land by excluding the the true owner for the required period. That’s most commonly by adversely possessing it on the ground, eg you’ve fenced it in and made it part of your garden. But receipt of rents and profits also gives grounds for a possessory claim.

So what you’d probably be looking at is buying on the basis of evidence of receipt of rents etc which was sufficient to establish that this person would be entitled to be registered with possessory title for the freehold, then your lawyer would apply to for you to be so registered. Or it might be that the seller has to do the possessory title application first, and then you buy when it’s been registered. But either way, someone is going to have to prepare what’s needed for the possessory title app and there would be a bit of work in there (over and above what would be needed to do a simple transfer of freehold if it was already registered).

[OverSteery]

Whistle said:

I have enquired about buying the leasehold for our house, it’s only £5.00 per year and has just over 900 years to run.

I suggested that it must be costing them more to administrate it than it’s actually worth. I also offered to pay all of the legal fees.

I paid £25.00 last week to cover for the next 5 years and made the request to buy it.

Can anyone shed any light on the response I have had below please as it makes no sense to me as have no idea what a unqualified freehold title is.
Just to note I own the property outright and I have the original deeds from the early 1930s

This is the response:

I regret that I am not in a position to sell you an unqualified freehold title.
When I took over the collection of the rents many years ago the previous owner was not able to sell several freehold titles to me as the deeds had been lost.
I therefore only have a possessory freehold title. I would be able to sell a similar title to you but the cost of applying to the land registry would be extremely high, likely to be in the access of £600.
As an alternative we could arrange to informally redeem the rent for a one off payment of £50.00 (less £25 already received) in exchange for which I would provide a certificate confirming that the rent is no longer payable.


Thanks.

This is a complex area, and I am no expert. Although a 3 year battle over land registration has taught me a bit. Is this in England?

It sounds rather like the leaseholder doesn't actually have title to the land he is charging you for. If he has deeds or it's registered with Land Reg, then it's his. If he has neither then he might be able to apply for adverse possession, (if many years ago is more than 12) but right now, I doubt it's legally his.


Land is not like other transactions - it must go through the conveyance process and be registered with Land registry.

I would talk to Land registry and find out who actually has the title. Stop paying rent and in 12 years, it might be yours via possessory title.

You may well need legal advice, in which case find a solicitor your specialises in this area. Do not just use a local conveyancer. Alas legal bills will be more than £5 per year.

I would be tempted to reply that as he doesn't own the land, you will be stopping paying your £5 per year. See what he does.

[Panamax]

OverSteery said:

I would talk to Land registry and find out who actually has the title.

You can very easily search the Land Registry title(s) online for about £3.
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-lan...

OverSteery said:

Stop paying rent and in 12 years, it might be yours via possessory title.

That approach would be high risk. If the rent is payable and you default in payment you could drop yourself right in the deep, brown and sticky stuff.

Do it properly or don't do it at all.

[Cyberprog]

Panamax said:

That approach would be high risk. If the rent is payable and you default in payment you could drop yourself right in the deep, brown and sticky stuff.

Do it properly or don't do it at all.

Problem is, wouldn't the freeholder (is that the right term?) need to produce the deed to back up any action? And if they did produce the deed, I'm sure the OP would be happy to pay.

[Panamax]

Cyberprog said:

Problem is, wouldn't the freeholder (is that the right term?) need to produce the deed to back up any action?

Most properties these days have "registered title" at the Land Registry rather than a file of old deeds and papers. Any deeds that were relevant will have been incorporated onto the Land Registry records.

Where there is a lease there may be two separately numbered titles for the same property and which will show everybody's rights,
1. the landlord's freehold title, and
2. the tenant's leasehold title.

Obviously if either of the titles hasn't been Registered there won't be a complete picture at the Land Registry but that's definitely the right starting point. As previously mentioned, the titles can be examined online at very low cost. Beyond that it would be a question of tracking down any old paper records.

If "rent" has been being paid it could be high risk to stop without first getting to the bottom of all the detail.

[Panamax]

Whistle said:

I therefore only have a possessory freehold title. I would be able to sell a similar title to you but the cost of applying to the land registry would be extremely high, likely to be in excess of £600.

IMO it would be well worth spending that to tidy up your ownership situation and then just sit back, letting the clock run to eventually convert possessory title to absolute title.