Legal routes to get a vehicle returned?
Discussion
Parent owns a vehicle, for which they have the invoice, proof of purchase and a V5 in their name. The vehicle has been registered as SORN by them and it not inured. The parent's adult child has the vehicle in their possession, despite being asked for over 6 months to return it. Child has also been advised via Divorce Solicitor that they must not drive the vehicle. Despite repeated requests they will not respond and will not disclose where the vehicle is. Parent has driven past the the child's home address but the vehicle isn't there. They are definitely driving the vehicle and accruing parking fines, and parent has been advised that the child has had an accident in the vehicle causing third-party and own vehicle damage.
Parent has reported the vehicle as stolen to the police, but they will not report it, they see it as a civil matter.
Some questions - is there any route to engaging a Bailiff type service without going to court to get the vehicle returned? Parent doesn't have a key.
How exposed is the parent if there is another accident? What can the parent do regarding fines if the police won't recognise the vehicle as stolen?
For context, parents are in an acrimonious divorce.
Parent has reported the vehicle as stolen to the police, but they will not report it, they see it as a civil matter.
Some questions - is there any route to engaging a Bailiff type service without going to court to get the vehicle returned? Parent doesn't have a key.
How exposed is the parent if there is another accident? What can the parent do regarding fines if the police won't recognise the vehicle as stolen?
For context, parents are in an acrimonious divorce.
Did the parent at some point allow the child to 'borrow' the vehicle, or leave it in their hands?
Seems to me the keeper is in the wrong, declaring it SORN when it's not off the road at their house, and it's not insured.
Theft is with intent to permanently deprive, cars are mostly 'taken without consent ' aka TWOC, bit iffy if the original taking was with consent.
So I can understand the police viewing it as a civil matter, 'I want back the car I let you borrow' ?
Is the car by any chance just one facet of a wider dispute?
One way forwards might be to demand the value of the car from the child instead of the car itself?
It would be a temptation to obtain a duplicate key and repo the car of course....
Seems to me the keeper is in the wrong, declaring it SORN when it's not off the road at their house, and it's not insured.
Theft is with intent to permanently deprive, cars are mostly 'taken without consent ' aka TWOC, bit iffy if the original taking was with consent.
So I can understand the police viewing it as a civil matter, 'I want back the car I let you borrow' ?
Is the car by any chance just one facet of a wider dispute?
One way forwards might be to demand the value of the car from the child instead of the car itself?
It would be a temptation to obtain a duplicate key and repo the car of course....
OP you need to look at the definition of theft as above BUT you also need to look at the points to prove for the offence especially the definitions of
"Dishonestly"
"Apprppriate"
and
"with the intention to permanently deprive"
Its not the dictionary definition you need to be concerned with but the legal definitions often interpreted by case law and stated cases
"Dishonestly"
"Apprppriate"
and
"with the intention to permanently deprive"
Its not the dictionary definition you need to be concerned with but the legal definitions often interpreted by case law and stated cases
OutInTheShed said:
Did the parent at some point allow the child to 'borrow' the vehicle, or leave it in their hands?
Seems to me the keeper is in the wrong, declaring it SORN when it's not off the road at their house, and it's not insured.
Theft is with intent to permanently deprive, cars are mostly 'taken without consent ' aka TWOC, bit iffy if the original taking was with consent.
So I can understand the police viewing it as a civil matter, 'I want back the car I let you borrow' ?
Is the car by any chance just one facet of a wider dispute?
One way forwards might be to demand the value of the car from the child instead of the car itself?
It would be a temptation to obtain a duplicate key and repo the car of course....
If I take your point logically, that means that someone can borrow something, and the owner can never ask for it back? Seems to me the keeper is in the wrong, declaring it SORN when it's not off the road at their house, and it's not insured.
Theft is with intent to permanently deprive, cars are mostly 'taken without consent ' aka TWOC, bit iffy if the original taking was with consent.
So I can understand the police viewing it as a civil matter, 'I want back the car I let you borrow' ?
Is the car by any chance just one facet of a wider dispute?
One way forwards might be to demand the value of the car from the child instead of the car itself?
It would be a temptation to obtain a duplicate key and repo the car of course....
Child does not have any money, or any means to raise finance.
The duplicate key option has been considered, but they cannot do this as parent doesn't know where the vehicle is - it's not at the home address and requests via the Solicitor are being ignored.
Chim Girl said:
If I take your point logically, that means that someone can borrow something, and the owner can never ask for it back?
Child does not have any money, or any means to raise finance.
The duplicate key option has been considered, but they cannot do this as parent doesn't know where the vehicle is - it's not at the home address and requests via the Solicitor are being ignored.
You can ask for it back.Child does not have any money, or any means to raise finance.
The duplicate key option has been considered, but they cannot do this as parent doesn't know where the vehicle is - it's not at the home address and requests via the Solicitor are being ignored.
But if I borrow something and am late giving it back, that's essentially a civil debt.
When you get into dishonestly trying to keep it permanently, that starts to become a crime.
Whereas the registered keeper is breaking the law not taxing or insuring the car and declaring it SORN when he doesn't even know where it is.
Collectingbrass said:
What's the value of the car? I'd be tempted to transfer the V5 Registered Keeper status to the vehicle keeper and wash my hands of any responsibility for it. The current vehicle keeper is an adult and needs to start acting like it.
Estimated £16k to £18k and the child is thirty-something. So yeah, needs to grow up a bit. Nasty piece of work, has convictions for drug/drink driving. Has made threats to harm parent if vehicle is taken away. Hence the questions regarding legal routes to getting it recovered. Edited by Chim Girl on Saturday 24th June 13:12
Chim Girl said:
Estimated £16k to £18k and the child is thirty-something. So yeah, needs to grow up a bit. Nasty piece of work, has convictions for drug/drink driving. Has made threats to harm parent if vehicle is taken away. Hence the questions regarding legal routes to getting it recovered.
There are no such safe legal routes especially with a unpleasant character. Give them the car and move on.Edited by Chim Girl on Saturday 24th June 13:12
I'm not surprised the police aren't interested. Their job is to deal with crime, not family squabbles over the return of property.
The solution is straightforward. Issue a civil legal claim for recovery of the car and/or its value in cash. Mind you, it's not likely to be necessary to issue proceedings; the solicitor's "7 days notice" letter will probably be enough to resolve things very quickly.
The solution is straightforward. Issue a civil legal claim for recovery of the car and/or its value in cash. Mind you, it's not likely to be necessary to issue proceedings; the solicitor's "7 days notice" letter will probably be enough to resolve things very quickly.
Panamax said:
I'm not surprised the police aren't interested. Their job is to deal with crime, not family squabbles over the return of property.
The solution is straightforward. Issue a civil legal claim for recovery of the car and/or its value in cash. Mind you, it's not likely to be necessary to issue proceedings; the solicitor's "7 days notice" letter will probably be enough to resolve things very quickly.
With a threatening unpleasant character? I doubt itThe solution is straightforward. Issue a civil legal claim for recovery of the car and/or its value in cash. Mind you, it's not likely to be necessary to issue proceedings; the solicitor's "7 days notice" letter will probably be enough to resolve things very quickly.
It is a police matter imo.
They have the apparatus and power to resolve this easily.
They are quick to target "dangerous cars" with daft number plates or slightly dark wndows. A situation here where a car is being driven uninsured by a driver who leaves the scene after incidents should surely make it onto the traffic police's priority list.
From my extensive knowledge of watching police fly on the wall programmes, the anpr will do the hard work nowadays anyway. Plod just need to add the registration onto the list, and follow up accordingly.
They have the apparatus and power to resolve this easily.
They are quick to target "dangerous cars" with daft number plates or slightly dark wndows. A situation here where a car is being driven uninsured by a driver who leaves the scene after incidents should surely make it onto the traffic police's priority list.
From my extensive knowledge of watching police fly on the wall programmes, the anpr will do the hard work nowadays anyway. Plod just need to add the registration onto the list, and follow up accordingly.
Ian Geary said:
From my extensive knowledge of watching police fly on the wall programmes, the anpr will do the hard work nowadays anyway. Plod just need to add the registration onto the list, and follow up accordingly.
Well.... as it has no insurance & is SORN, you'd have thought that ANPR would already be alerting, should it be driven past one ?As above though, to SORN it, the keeper should know where it is. If it was taken without their consent, then report that - otherwise they are starting to implicate themselves.....
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