Variable Speed Limit w/o VSL Signage - Fines/Points
Discussion
Hi all,
First time posting in S,P&TL but I have a situation I'd appreciate some thoughts on from those more in the know than I when it comes to such matters.
I transit through three average speed controlled zones (ASCZ) daily on my commute, which has been the same commute now for 4 years. Covid adjusted, I have transited them approximately 4,230 times in total (5 days * 47 weeks (holiday) * 3 years (Covid adj - extremely conservative, I was WFH for 2 months then phased return) * 6 zones (3 there, 3 back).
In the last few years, one of the zones (which is dual carriageway) changed from NSL to 60mph. Somewhat more recently, a specific section in the middle of this ASCZ has had some digital signs put up which can lower the speed from the 60mph to anything else.
As you enter this zone, it is signposted as being 60 (standard red circle sign) and there is an "Average Speed Check" sign there also. There is no signage at all about it now being a Variable Speed Limit (VSL).
The digital signs which advise of the speed limit within that specific zone are not placed on gantries, they are all on the curbside of the road. There are 5 in total across a 2.2km span. If you are alongside a lorry or in slower moving traffic when you pass them, they are 100% obscured. Also, driving westbound in the evening, a low/glaring sun will completely overpower them making them illegible.
I have received a NIP for transiting this zone at 49mph. Now - given I go through ASCZ 6 times per day and have done so without a ticket a conservative estimate of 4,230 times in the last four years, clearly, I am aware that speeding through a zone will result in a ticket and I have thus avoided it.
While I cannot remember the exact evening in question (company car, so this is now over a month ago as it takes longer to receive NIP), I have to assume I have not seen the first couple of digital signs due to either being obscured behind traffic or a low sun (8pm time of ticket), and have then slowed down to 40mph having seen them. To go significantly slower than this to average my speed out would of course have been dangerous in any lane to the other traffic.
I suppose my question therefore is whether it is worth taking this one to court. Having not had any issue through one of these zones previously and now to be caught by a VSL which is not signposted as such and does not have gantry signage to give people a fair chance of slowing down feels like nothing more than a tax. Furthermore, I have reviewed the images provided (which of course are beyond reproach in terms of timing etc, camera calibration certificates are provided also), but there is no provided evidence to show whether the digital signs were even displaying a 40mph limit at that time.
I have 3 points which expire shortly and was hoping to be clean for a while, however I've done a driver awareness course in the last 3 years so I doubt I'd be offered a course.
Thoughts most welcome of a sensible path forward.
First time posting in S,P&TL but I have a situation I'd appreciate some thoughts on from those more in the know than I when it comes to such matters.
I transit through three average speed controlled zones (ASCZ) daily on my commute, which has been the same commute now for 4 years. Covid adjusted, I have transited them approximately 4,230 times in total (5 days * 47 weeks (holiday) * 3 years (Covid adj - extremely conservative, I was WFH for 2 months then phased return) * 6 zones (3 there, 3 back).
In the last few years, one of the zones (which is dual carriageway) changed from NSL to 60mph. Somewhat more recently, a specific section in the middle of this ASCZ has had some digital signs put up which can lower the speed from the 60mph to anything else.
As you enter this zone, it is signposted as being 60 (standard red circle sign) and there is an "Average Speed Check" sign there also. There is no signage at all about it now being a Variable Speed Limit (VSL).
The digital signs which advise of the speed limit within that specific zone are not placed on gantries, they are all on the curbside of the road. There are 5 in total across a 2.2km span. If you are alongside a lorry or in slower moving traffic when you pass them, they are 100% obscured. Also, driving westbound in the evening, a low/glaring sun will completely overpower them making them illegible.
I have received a NIP for transiting this zone at 49mph. Now - given I go through ASCZ 6 times per day and have done so without a ticket a conservative estimate of 4,230 times in the last four years, clearly, I am aware that speeding through a zone will result in a ticket and I have thus avoided it.
While I cannot remember the exact evening in question (company car, so this is now over a month ago as it takes longer to receive NIP), I have to assume I have not seen the first couple of digital signs due to either being obscured behind traffic or a low sun (8pm time of ticket), and have then slowed down to 40mph having seen them. To go significantly slower than this to average my speed out would of course have been dangerous in any lane to the other traffic.
I suppose my question therefore is whether it is worth taking this one to court. Having not had any issue through one of these zones previously and now to be caught by a VSL which is not signposted as such and does not have gantry signage to give people a fair chance of slowing down feels like nothing more than a tax. Furthermore, I have reviewed the images provided (which of course are beyond reproach in terms of timing etc, camera calibration certificates are provided also), but there is no provided evidence to show whether the digital signs were even displaying a 40mph limit at that time.
I have 3 points which expire shortly and was hoping to be clean for a while, however I've done a driver awareness course in the last 3 years so I doubt I'd be offered a course.
Thoughts most welcome of a sensible path forward.
Edited by Gatsods on Friday 30th June 19:34
Take the points or a course if its offered! Not getting done before is no guarantee you can argue & escape the points in court...if anything they might decide to go back & stick you for some of those & give you more than 3 points as your highlighting your a dangerous driver by ignoring previous limits!
Few people get this sort of thing over turned other than on a technical loophole!
Few people get this sort of thing over turned other than on a technical loophole!
With the NIP being for 49mph in a 60 zone, I presume that the VSL was set at 40.
I would carefully look at the timings of the VSL activation & the calculations used to determine your average speed.
What if you entered the VSL zone when 60 was showing on the sign, but which then turned to 40 after you passed it, but you didn't know about it until you saw the next VSL sign showing 40.
Presumably the software used to calculate average speeds would take that scenario into account, but I would want to verify that for myself before accepting 3 points.
I would carefully look at the timings of the VSL activation & the calculations used to determine your average speed.
What if you entered the VSL zone when 60 was showing on the sign, but which then turned to 40 after you passed it, but you didn't know about it until you saw the next VSL sign showing 40.
Presumably the software used to calculate average speeds would take that scenario into account, but I would want to verify that for myself before accepting 3 points.
RS_MAN_CHILD said:
Take the points or a course if its offered! Not getting done before is no guarantee you can argue & escape the points in court...if anything they might decide to go back & stick you for some of those & give you more than 3 points as your highlighting your a dangerous driver by ignoring previous limits!
Few people get this sort of thing over turned other than on a technical loophole!
Thanks for the response RS. I fully accept that demonstrating safe driving doesn't make you in any way ineligible for points, really just demonstrating my history of ASCZ driving without a single penalty.Few people get this sort of thing over turned other than on a technical loophole!
I don't quite follow your point about going back and getting me for previous speeding offences - I haven't made reference to any in the above so don't follow you there!
Technical loophole wise, really I was thinking of the following:
- Variable Speed Limit without any signage to indicate it
- VSL signs only on one side of a dual carriageway (you never even see this at roadworks let alone a permanent fixture)
- No gantry for a VSL (only one I know of)
Mandat said:
With the NIP being for 49mph in a 60 zone, I presume that the VSL was set at 40.
I would carefully look at the timings of the VSL activation & the calculations used to determine your average speed.
What if you entered the VSL zone when 60 was showing on the sign, but which then turned to 40 after you passed it, but you didn't know about it until you saw the next VSL sign showing 40.
Presumably the software used to calculate average speeds would take that scenario into account, but I would want to verify that for myself before accepting 3 points.
Thanks for the response Mandat. I am pretty sure I read somewhere else that VSLs only become active 60 seconds after the limit has changed - that's the theory.I would carefully look at the timings of the VSL activation & the calculations used to determine your average speed.
What if you entered the VSL zone when 60 was showing on the sign, but which then turned to 40 after you passed it, but you didn't know about it until you saw the next VSL sign showing 40.
Presumably the software used to calculate average speeds would take that scenario into account, but I would want to verify that for myself before accepting 3 points.
Reality is, I don't think there is any evidence that the limit was set at 40mph when I went through that area until someone tells me otherwise. I could well be wrong.
I fully agree that before I take 3 points, a £100 fine and three more years of bad insurance prices, I would like to see that evidence.
I think you have a case.
But best practice is to write to the issuing authority in the first instance to see if it can be cancelled for the reasons you've raised.
Is there a video or photos available of the moment as you may well be able to see from a photo whether or not your windscreen was glowing with the reflection of a 5 billion year old fireball 12 light years away or not.
But best practice is to write to the issuing authority in the first instance to see if it can be cancelled for the reasons you've raised.
Is there a video or photos available of the moment as you may well be able to see from a photo whether or not your windscreen was glowing with the reflection of a 5 billion year old fireball 12 light years away or not.
ingenieur said:
I think you have a case.
But best practice is to write to the issuing authority in the first instance to see if it can be cancelled for the reasons you've raised.
Is there a video or photos available of the moment as you may well be able to see from a photo whether or not your windscreen was glowing with the reflection of a 5 billion year old fireball 12 light years away or not.
Thanks Ingenieur. Is there a specific way to contact the authorities for this/more specifically to find the route to contact them?But best practice is to write to the issuing authority in the first instance to see if it can be cancelled for the reasons you've raised.
Is there a video or photos available of the moment as you may well be able to see from a photo whether or not your windscreen was glowing with the reflection of a 5 billion year old fireball 12 light years away or not.
I had a look at the letter and couldn't see any form of appeals section, but this may be as the first letter (from work) is just the one to identify who the driver was as it's registerer to a company.
Gatsods said:
ingenieur said:
I think you have a case.
But best practice is to write to the issuing authority in the first instance to see if it can be cancelled for the reasons you've raised.
Is there a video or photos available of the moment as you may well be able to see from a photo whether or not your windscreen was glowing with the reflection of a 5 billion year old fireball 12 light years away or not.
Thanks Ingenieur. Is there a specific way to contact the authorities for this/more specifically to find the route to contact them?But best practice is to write to the issuing authority in the first instance to see if it can be cancelled for the reasons you've raised.
Is there a video or photos available of the moment as you may well be able to see from a photo whether or not your windscreen was glowing with the reflection of a 5 billion year old fireball 12 light years away or not.
I had a look at the letter and couldn't see any form of appeals section, but this may be as the first letter (from work) is just the one to identify who the driver was as it's registerer to a company.
You must keep a forensic eye on timings. Failure to note deadlines could leave you with a court summons just because you've not responded in time. But recorded delivery of your letter which must be sent in time is enough evidence that you are engaging with the process and not ignoring the situation.
Where is this? I've never come across average speed cameras that enforce variable limits.
Our are you saying it's no longer enforced by SPECS. If its HADECS 3 then there should be a picture of the gantry showing the speed limit as well as your car.
Our are you saying it's no longer enforced by SPECS. If its HADECS 3 then there should be a picture of the gantry showing the speed limit as well as your car.
Edited by Bendo on Saturday 1st July 00:30
There’s a few issues here (retired highways manager - local authority). To prosecute there must be a traffic order in place and appropriate signing. I assume there is a traffic order,.I personally would be concerned if speed limit signs were only displayed along the near side verge of a dual way. That said, the rules about speed limit repeater signs are complex with minimum spacing for them being on the near side and or offside. I suspect that what you may have here is an overhead gantry at the start of the length setting the current limit with repeaters along the near side within the length of the limit? If that’s the case I think they are probably ok. All the criteria for signing is in TSR&GD and Traffic Signs Manual all on Google. Just be aware that most police forces now have dedicated officers or civilians who rigorously check that signing is correct to avoid having to deal with the fallout if found to be unenforceable. The regulations are particularly difficult to interpret. Good luck if you decide to challenge. I think you’ll struggle. By the way ignore comments regarding enforcement issues when limit’s are changed - there is adequate delay before enforcement commences.
ingenieur said:
Gatsods said:
ingenieur said:
I think you have a case.
But best practice is to write to the issuing authority in the first instance to see if it can be cancelled for the reasons you've raised.
Is there a video or photos available of the moment as you may well be able to see from a photo whether or not your windscreen was glowing with the reflection of a 5 billion year old fireball 12 light years away or not.
Thanks Ingenieur. Is there a specific way to contact the authorities for this/more specifically to find the route to contact them?But best practice is to write to the issuing authority in the first instance to see if it can be cancelled for the reasons you've raised.
Is there a video or photos available of the moment as you may well be able to see from a photo whether or not your windscreen was glowing with the reflection of a 5 billion year old fireball 12 light years away or not.
I had a look at the letter and couldn't see any form of appeals section, but this may be as the first letter (from work) is just the one to identify who the driver was as it's registerer to a company.
You must keep a forensic eye on timings. Failure to note deadlines could leave you with a court summons just because you've not responded in time. But recorded delivery of your letter which must be sent in time is enough evidence that you are engaging with the process and not ignoring the situation.
I will look for a suitable address to send something to. I assume you think a printed letter is a better option than an email?
Bendo said:
Where is this? I've never come across average speed cameras that enforce variable limits.
Our are you saying it's no longer enforced by SPECS. If its HADECS 3 then there should be a picture of the gantry showing the speed limit as well as your car.
Tin foil hat and all but I'd rather not give out anything further for now about locations etc.Our are you saying it's no longer enforced by SPECS. If its HADECS 3 then there should be a picture of the gantry showing the speed limit as well as your car.
Edited by Bendo on Saturday 1st July 00:30
The evidence provided on the online link shows the cameras to be SPECS cameras and also included calibration certificates as such. There is no gantry at all on this VSL, and none of the digital speed signs are visible in either picture provided to me.
siremoon said:
IANAL (I've always wanted to post that!) but surely, in a variable speed limit area, the posted speed limit at the time of the alleged offence is a critical piece of evidence? If they can't produce that then I don't see how they can prove you were exceeding the limit.
I agree entirely and to be honest think this will be the basis of my case. Not sure what IANAL means though! 
Rompy said:
There’s a few issues here (retired highways manager - local authority). To prosecute there must be a traffic order in place and appropriate signing. I assume there is a traffic order,.I personally would be concerned if speed limit signs were only displayed along the near side verge of a dual way. That said, the rules about speed limit repeater signs are complex with minimum spacing for them being on the near side and or offside. I suspect that what you may have here is an overhead gantry at the start of the length setting the current limit with repeaters along the near side within the length of the limit? If that’s the case I think they are probably ok. All the criteria for signing is in TSR&GD and Traffic Signs Manual all on Google. Just be aware that most police forces now have dedicated officers or civilians who rigorously check that signing is correct to avoid having to deal with the fallout if found to be unenforceable. The regulations are particularly difficult to interpret. Good luck if you decide to challenge. I think you’ll struggle. By the way ignore comments regarding enforcement issues when limit’s are changed - there is adequate delay before enforcement commences.
Hi Rompy - thanks for your response.i am not sure what a "Traffic Order" means in this instance - can you elaborate?
I can confirm that the speed limit signs are only down the near-side of the road (left-hand as driving down it). This is the same for both directions at this location. As I mentioned before, this is less signage than you even get at a temporary roadworks controlled speed limit etc, and is not good enough.
I can also confirm that there is no gantry at any point at this location, with or without signs for speed. Nothing overhead that you pass underneath at any point. Furthermore, as you approach the area which is now a VSL, around ~5 seconds of driving time before you get there you drive over a big white painted "60" with a white circle around it in each lane.
Thanks for reminder about VSL time delay, I did think that was the case so won't go down that route.
Gatsods said:
Tin foil hat and all but I'd rather not give out anything further for now about locations etc.
The evidence provided on the online link shows the cameras to be SPECS cameras and also included calibration certificates as such. There is no gantry at all on this VSL, and none of the digital speed signs are visible in either picture provided to me.
Fair enough. Are you absolutely sure it's a variable limit. I can find nothing about SPECS being used for average speed enforcement and if it could, you would expect it to be mentioned on the manufacturers website AND it would likely be a better solution for motorway variable limits than HADECS which are easy to avoid. The evidence provided on the online link shows the cameras to be SPECS cameras and also included calibration certificates as such. There is no gantry at all on this VSL, and none of the digital speed signs are visible in either picture provided to me.
You need to identify the driver irrespective of any letter you send them. Failure to do so could turn a simple speed awareness or 3 points into 6 points.
I'm not a lawyer either BTW, just have an interest in speed cameras as if you know about then,they are easier to avoid!
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