When does a speed limit become enforcable?
Discussion
The A41 near me, just south of Chester is getting a 40mph limit as it passes through a village, fair cop, no real issues with that.
Work is ongoing, and the following scenario has been inplace for a week or so...
As you approach from the north there is a single 40 limit sign on the drivers nearside. As you approach from the south there are a pair other 40 signs one on each side of the road. There are no NSL signs posted as you leave the area. The country lane that I use to get onto the A41 falls between these two points and has no 40 signs as you approach the A41, nor any NSL as you leave. Theres also red tarmac at various intervals, some with 40 painted on.
Is the area already a 40mph zone or will the speed limit come into effect at some future date. If the 40 limit is in force can they prosecute as there is incomplete signage in the area?
Is there any online resource that will inform us when the limit does come into being? At present I'm taking it with a pinch of salt as I typically turn off the A41 tere anyway, but some people are hitting the anchors, causing lorries to do emergency stops and the like.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Iain
Work is ongoing, and the following scenario has been inplace for a week or so...
As you approach from the north there is a single 40 limit sign on the drivers nearside. As you approach from the south there are a pair other 40 signs one on each side of the road. There are no NSL signs posted as you leave the area. The country lane that I use to get onto the A41 falls between these two points and has no 40 signs as you approach the A41, nor any NSL as you leave. Theres also red tarmac at various intervals, some with 40 painted on.
Is the area already a 40mph zone or will the speed limit come into effect at some future date. If the 40 limit is in force can they prosecute as there is incomplete signage in the area?
Is there any online resource that will inform us when the limit does come into being? At present I'm taking it with a pinch of salt as I typically turn off the A41 tere anyway, but some people are hitting the anchors, causing lorries to do emergency stops and the like.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Iain
I would have thought the only way to be sure is to check with the local council to see when the new limit comes into effect. The signs could be in place and should be covered over, until such time, but I would doubt this as someone would need to come back and remove the wrappers. Maybe the limit is in place already and the council are late in placing the signs?
Hence asking the Council is the only way to know.
Hence asking the Council is the only way to know.
chassis 33 said:
The country lane that I use to get onto the A41 falls between these two points and has no 40 signs as you approach the A41, nor any NSL as you leave.
Then it cannot possibly be construed as being properly signed. If you don't pass any 40 signs then you cannot possibly know there's a limit.
As mention is made of work ongoing not sure whether this is a temorary Limit for roadworks under section 14 Road Traffic Regulation Act, 1984 or a permanent Order under section 84 RTRA 84.
Both require the commencement of the 40 to be signed at either side of the road with repeaters but only a yellow Road works End - sorry for delay plate or Umbrellaman Triangle and End Logo on nearside when leaving providing there has been no change in a limit in between. i.e. 50 etc in which case NSL signs both sides of the roads on leaving.
If under Sect 84 then start of limit signs and end NSL signs both sides of the road with repeaters if appropriate.
If this has just appeared may well be that the commencement Order date is in the future to allow signing to be brought up to scratch although if this was the case then signs up should be covered. If the Order's commencement date has passed then limit not signed in accordance with regs and arguement limit unenforceable.
Suggest local LA Traffic Management Department be contacted and position clarified and signs made legal.
dvd
Both require the commencement of the 40 to be signed at either side of the road with repeaters but only a yellow Road works End - sorry for delay plate or Umbrellaman Triangle and End Logo on nearside when leaving providing there has been no change in a limit in between. i.e. 50 etc in which case NSL signs both sides of the roads on leaving.
If under Sect 84 then start of limit signs and end NSL signs both sides of the road with repeaters if appropriate.
If this has just appeared may well be that the commencement Order date is in the future to allow signing to be brought up to scratch although if this was the case then signs up should be covered. If the Order's commencement date has passed then limit not signed in accordance with regs and arguement limit unenforceable.
Suggest local LA Traffic Management Department be contacted and position clarified and signs made legal.
dvd
Anecdotal reports suggest that there is a growing practice of erecting uncovered signs, possibly because the conractors couldn't care less or haven't been properly instructed, possibly to save money, and possibly because motorists are so paranoid these days that they don't question officialdom and bang on the anchors when they see a sign - Streaky
deva link said:
What's causing some people to hit the anchors - suddenly seeing a sign?
Of course, (proper) lorries should only be doing 40 on that road anyway.
And you really think the Irish plates on their way to Holyhead give a damn anyway? Local opinion is that most lorries use that section of the A41 as an alternative to the M6 going to/from Holyhead and Liverpool ports. Anyway I digress
Regards
Iain
streaky said:
Anecdotal reports suggest that there is a growing practice of erecting uncovered signs, possibly because the conractors couldn't care less or haven't been properly instructed, possibly to save money, and possibly because motorists are so paranoid these days that they don't question officialdom and bang on the anchors when they see a sign - Streaky
I can confirm that this is practice in Worcestershire.
Proceedings generally to one of two practices,
either:-
A) relevant order posted commencment @ dd/mm/yy. Typically round T-14 days the signs go up uncovered, old signs removed.
or:-
B) Signs erected/dismantled sometimes in complete disarray, council finds out no order in place or posted. Retrospective slippery footwork. Meantime road carries *correct/incorrect/duplicate/contradictory/no signing (* delete as appropriate.)
Meanwhile potentially unenforceable and confusing situation continues. Not helped by beaks who sometimes err on the side of what the council intended rather than the letter.
Letter of the law applies two ways madame chairperson.
Flat in Fifth said:
B) Signs erected/dismantled sometimes in complete disarray, council finds out no order in place or posted. Retrospective slippery footwork. Meantime road carries *correct/incorrect/duplicate/contradictory/no signing (* delete as appropriate.)
Meanwhile potentially unenforceable and confusing situation continues. Not helped by beaks who sometimes err on the side of what the council intended rather than the letter.
Letter of the law applies two ways madame chairperson.
Order has to be in place under Road Traffic Regulation Act before speed limit is enforceable.
Order not effective unless properly signed - ie must have all necessary signs before speed limit is enforceable.
A "beak" taking a view that the limit is enforeceable because signs are there (but no Order) or vice versa because "that's what the Council intended", has no basis in law - it either complies or it does not, and if it does not then and convictions are unsafe and will be turned over at appeal.
(Obviously the driver has to know this or he won't appeal, eh?)
>> Edited by tvrgit on Thursday 1st September 15:32
tvrgit said:
Order has to be in place under Road Traffic Regulation Act before speed limit is enforceable.
Order not effective unless properly signed - ie must have all necessary signs before speed limit is enforceable.
Exactly, it's not rocket science, so why do councils make such a hollyhocks of it.
I would argue it is unreasonable to expect that the signage is changed at the stroke of midnight on the day the traffic order commences; particularly if civil engineering work is required, new posts etc.
What is so difficult about erecting the new signs and cover them over properly, maybe temporary obliterated by grey paint we so often see as opposed to flimsy black bin bags or increasingly no effort at all.
We are expected to respect the law, but certain authorities show no respect in return and therefore none is reciprocated. (If that makes sense)
FiF
Fortunately the law is quite clear on what happens when the road is mot properly singposted (and is not a restricted road). You can go as fast as you like, and they can't prosecute you for excess speed.
I suspect if you did 156 on the raised section of the A40, they'd have a go for dangerous driving.
I suspect if you did 156 on the raised section of the A40, they'd have a go for dangerous driving.
7db said:
Fortunately the law is quite clear on what happens when the road is mot properly singposted (and is not a restricted road). You can go as fast as you like, and they can't prosecute you for excess speed.
I suspect if you did 156 on the raised section of the A40, they'd have a go for dangerous driving.
No, I think that if the road is not a "restricted road" (ie built up and lit) in terms of the Act, then the NSL applies by default (That's always been my understanding but I could be wrong) - based on the fact that you don't need an Order to apply NSL, but you do to apply any limit other than NSL.
RoadTrafficRegulationAct1984-Section85 said:
(1) For the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles as to whether any, and if so what, limit of speed is to be observed on any road, it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State, in the case of a trunk road, to erect and maintain the prescribed traffic signs in such positions as may be requisite for that purpose.
(2) In the case of any road which is not a trunk road, it shall be the duty of the local authority -
(a) to erect and maintain the prescribed traffic signs in such positions as may be requisite in order to give effect to general or other directions given by the Secretary of State for the purpose mentioned in subsection (1) above, and
(b) to alter or remove traffic signs as may be requisite in order to give effect to such directions, either in consequence of the making of an order by the Secretary of State or otherwise.
(4) Where no system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart is provided on a road, but a limit of speed is to be observed on the road, a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) above.
I think that covers it. The point is not about a valid ORDER for the road (defaulting to NSL or 30 for restricted roads), but the SIGNING of that road. You need both for enforcement of a road which doesn't have a system of street-lighting.
Notice that the raised section of the A40 does have a system of street-lighting, but is not a restricted road -- an order having been placed to remove its restricted status.
I can't see anthing in RTA1988 or 1991 to override this. I'm sure DVD is better informed than me, though.
>> Edited by 7db on Friday 2nd September 18:21
7db said:
Fortunately the law is quite clear on what happens when the road is mot properly singposted (and is not a restricted road). You can go as fast as you like, and they can't prosecute you for excess speed.
I suspect if you did 156 on the raised section of the A40, they'd have a go for dangerous driving.
Yes butno but yes but no. Nearly.
They can and have done in the past. It is at Court that the final decision is made. Obviously with glaring examples then CPS would not proceed.
dvd
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