Can anyone be a Church?

[Sogra]

Not far from me there is a small village and the Village Hall is being rented out to a Church called VFC. Their first session will be this Sunday.
They have locations around the World and appears to be a charity however when I read their goals, aims etc it does have the smell of a cult and indeed in the USA there is a news report where they have had to deny being a cult.

So my question is can any one be a Church and is there a legal definition or threshold they need to achieve?

[dundarach]

I guess it depends upon a few things.

Mainly charity status and insurances etc. I'd imagine.

Anyone can meet together for anything.

https://www.lbmw.com/site/news-updates/knowledge/s...

[Canon_Fodder]

https://thelawdictionary.org/church/

[akirk]

there are a number of churches who go by VFC so it might depend which organisation it is…

there are though two answers to your question:

secular:
yes, there is very little restriction on setting up a ‘church’ and arguably you can do what you want as long as you don’t break any relevant laws…

christian:
the best way to tell between ‘proper church’ and ‘cult’ is to ask where the focus is - if the focus is on God / Jesus / Holy Spirit and the Bible, then likely to be a proper church… if the focus is on people / leadership / financial giving / signing up / membership / etc. then it might be closer to being a cult…

[Ind1e]

Not exactly an exhaustive explanation but still :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64224...

[mikeyr]

Not Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption is it? Love that John Oliver set up his own church in the USA!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Perpetua...

[_Hoppers]

My in laws go to Global Church in York, it appears that their tithe just contribues to the directors' lavish lifestyle?!

Edited by _Hoppers on Thursday 27th July 16:46

[Panamax]

akirk said:

the best way to tell between ‘proper church’ and ‘cult’ is to ask where the focus is - if the focus is on God / Jesus / Holy Spirit and the Bible, then likely to be a proper church… if the focus is on people / leadership / financial giving / signing up / membership / etc. then it might be closer to being a cult…

For instance, the so-called Church of Scientology claims to be recognised in UK but Wikipedia tells us,

"Scientology has received critical judgments from British courts, calling it "pernicious nonsense", "dangerous material" and "immoral and socially obnoxious". It has been described in Parliament as a socially harmful enterprise which indoctrinates children and other vulnerable people by "ignorantly practising quasi-psychological techniques". The UK Government's 1971 official report into Scientology was highly critical, as was another report prepared secretly several years later. Since then, the Church has been recognised as a religion by some authorities, but is not itself a registered charity."

[Panamax]

_Hoppers said:

Remarkable, isn't it, that Mr Shore is getting just enough to stay below the 40% tax band and hasn't had a pay rise for a few years. Whilst the talented Mrs Shore has joined the team and earns just enough to be paying hardly any tax at all. He moves in mysterious ways...

[Sebring440]

Panamax said:

Remarkable, isn't it, that Mr Shore is getting just enough to stay below the 40% tax band and hasn't had a pay rise for a few years. Whilst the talented Mrs Shore has joined the team and earns just enough to be paying hardly any tax at all. He moves in mysterious ways...

You can say that again.

[_Hoppers]

Sebring440 said:

Panamax said:

Remarkable, isn't it, that Mr Shore is getting just enough to stay below the 40% tax band and hasn't had a pay rise for a few years. Whilst the talented Mrs Shore has joined the team and earns just enough to be paying hardly any tax at all. He moves in mysterious ways...

You can say that again.

+1

Going back further in their accounts, in 2014 he took out £78k IIRC

Edited by _Hoppers on Thursday 27th July 15:17

[akirk]

_Hoppers said:

My in laws go to Global Church in York, it appears that their tithe just contribues to the directors' lavish lifestyle, with hardly any going to charity?!

Edited by _Hoppers on Thursday 27th July 14:25

not sure that is quite private jets and champagne lifestyle...
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/all-the...

article said:

If your pastor owns a private jet, you should find a new church. And if your favorite televangelist says he can’t fly commercial because a public airplane is “a long tube with a bunch of demons,” well, why are we still talking about this?

Yet, somehow, this needs to be said, considering televangelist and scammer Kenneth Copeland still has a large following and a net worth of $760 million. Did I mention that he owns three jets thanks to his distaste for demons?

the best riposte from the journalist:

article said:

If you’re out there, Copeland, I just have one question for you: Have you ever picked up a Bible?

true churches and christianity is not about the individual - leadership is modelled on Christ - servant leadership and is not a cult of the leader - it is not difficult to spot some differences... In the UK the CofE pitches salaries at a level where it is supposed to mean that no-one does it for the money, but it is enough money to not fall into temptation elsewhere... i.e. not a lot of pay - the figures above aren't all that high if that is their main form of recompense...

[_Hoppers]

akirk said:

there are a number of churches who go by VFC so it might depend which organisation it is…

there are though two answers to your question:

secular:
yes, there is very little restriction on setting up a ‘church’ and arguably you can do what you want as long as you don’t break any relevant laws…

christian:
the best way to tell between ‘proper church’ and ‘cult’ is to ask where the focus is - if the focus is on God / Jesus / Holy Spirit and the Bible, then likely to be a proper church… if the focus is on people / leadership / financial giving / signing up / membership / etc. then it might be closer to being a cult…

I went to one of the (many) inlaws kid's dedications (it's a bit like a christening), it was the first time for me but I was really surprised that the focus was on succeeding and doing well in your life/career, rather than religion. I've only been to one service, as I've since managed to find excuses not to go again, so other services may well be religious oriented. I took me a while to realise but if you're doing well in your career that 10% tithe to the church will increase as a result! Maybe I'm being cynical though?!

[_Hoppers]

akirk said:

not sure that is quite private jets and champagne lifestyle

Nope, but it is two new Teslas and a big fk off house! Both the directors are wealthy in their own right so the wage form the church is pocket money! It seems imoral to me that seeing it's a church and registered as a charity they don't appear to give the money to those who need it.

Edited by _Hoppers on Thursday 27th July 16:35

[Sogra]

Thanks all. I am pretty relaxed normally about beliefs but it was the using of a community hall that had rattled my cage.

Thanks again

[akirk]

_Hoppers said:

akirk said:

there are a number of churches who go by VFC so it might depend which organisation it is…

there are though two answers to your question:

secular:
yes, there is very little restriction on setting up a ‘church’ and arguably you can do what you want as long as you don’t break any relevant laws…

christian:
the best way to tell between ‘proper church’ and ‘cult’ is to ask where the focus is - if the focus is on God / Jesus / Holy Spirit and the Bible, then likely to be a proper church… if the focus is on people / leadership / financial giving / signing up / membership / etc. then it might be closer to being a cult…

I went to one of the (many) inlaws kid's dedications (it's a bit like a christening), it was the first time for me but I was really surprised that the focus was on succeeding and doing well in your life/career, rather than religion. I've only been to one service, as I've since managed to find excuses not to go again, so other services may well be religious oriented. I took me a while to realise but if you're doing well in your career that 10% tithe to the church will increase as a result! Maybe I'm being cynical though?!

then I would surmise that it is perhaps not as Christian as they might claim - dedication / baptism / christening - all similar, baptism / christening are two words for the basic same ceremony and that is where a child (or adult) is baptised into the faith - i.e. joins the church - it is symbolic with water representing the washing away of sins and the new life in Jesus. A dedication is for small children / babies where there is a feeling that baptism should only be for those who make the decision themselves - and it is the promises (which do also exist in a baptism service) by the adults that they will bring the child up in the faith etc.

there is nothing anywhere in those services relating to success in life / career - it is all about sin and the removal of sin through Christ dying on the cross etc. - if there is a different focus then you would be right to be cynical and to challenge it - it would not be biblical in its basis.

ultimately there are many organisations calling themselves christians / churches and they vary - there are many different approaches, but fundamentally they split between those who focus on the bible - seeing it as the word of God and looking to use it to help explain how to live their lives - their focus will be on Christ / God / following the scripture, even though it is at a cost to themselves - and then the rest where their rules are perhaps using scripture taken out of context, perhaps using their own made up rules - but the minute you step away from following the bible / God, then anything goes, but technically you should be challenged as to whether you are actually a bunch of Christians / a church...

there has been a movement in the US known as the prosperity gospel which uses certain verses in the bible out of context to imply / state that the more you follow God the more you will see riches on earth - and out of that comes a lot of corrupted messages and harmful practices. That is not standard Christianity!

[akirk]

Sogra said:

Thanks all. I am pretty relaxed normally about beliefs but it was the using of a community hall that had rattled my cage.

Thanks again

lots of genuine churches use halls / school halls / etc. to meet - while the Church of England is in numerical decline, the church over all in the UK is on the increase, but those areas of growth are in non Church of England churches - or specific parts of the CofE - and very often they do not have a network of buildings, but meet in suitable buildings. My church is part of a family of three - planted from the Church of England - loosely affiliated with the CofE - but our buildings are:
- an old Lutheran chapel we bought
- another old non CofE church we bought
- meeting in a school hall
so, quite normal

[Flumpo]

_Hoppers said:

akirk said:

not sure that is quite private jets and champagne lifestyle

Nope, but it is two new Teslas and a big fk off house! Both the directors are wealthy in their own right so the wage form the church is pocket money! It seems imoral to me that seeing it's a church and registered as a charity they don't give the money to those who need it.

I might need you to come and help me manage my money, after tax, pension, mortgage some savings and general living I can’t get 2 teslas and a big fk off house out of those numbers.

[Roofless Toothless]

As Frank Zappa said, the difference between a cult and a religion is largely the amount of real estate involved.

He also said, ‘Tax the churches. Tax the businesses owned by the churches.’

[Tom8]

The Church of Climatology has overtaken every religion in the world. It's priests and profits are raking it in.