Tenancy Legals - End of Tenancy
Discussion
A few queries I’d like some help/opinions on please. The story:
12 month tenancy coming to an end.
Three people on the tenancy agreement (Daughter + 2 others).
All 3 jointly/severally liable as per usual.
Daughter’s name appears first on agreement followed by the others names. Daughter’s home address (ours) is named as contact address. All rental payments were required to be made as a single payment to the agent by my daughter, including deposit (rather than by each tenant individually).
Q1. As she paid the initial deposit should it be returned to her to then distribute back to the others, or can the agent/landlord decide to give it back to all three tenants individually? I was under the impression that it must go back the same way it came in.
Q2. Although the keys were handed over on the tenancy start date, the property had not (in the opinions of all three parents) been “professionally cleaned” nor was it ready. E.g. the sofas, mattresses and curtains were heavily soiled, there were bed bugs on two beds, smoke alarms still needed to be replaced, some bulbs were out (nothing major). Mould in shower area and grout. Some quite bad mould discovered under the kitchen cupboards too. We are not going to book a professional clean because of the above but will instead spend a few hours doing it properly ourselves. It will be left in a better condition than we found it. They’ve quoted around £350 to clean a 3 bed flat. For that amount I’d want to be there to see what they do but unfortunately it would be the day after the tenancy ends. And we would tied to using their preferred suppliers in any case.
Anyone have experience of agents clawing back cleaning costs just because the tenants have chosen not to use their preferred contractors?
Q3. Finally, the actual move in date was delayed for the above reasons and a few more resulting in additional costs and hassle for us. The agent even agreed that things didn’t go well, and suggested revisiting the situation at a later date after everyone had settled in to see what could be done to compensate us. Since then they have gone back on their word. If we get nowhere with their complaints procedure is it worth taking the case up with the Property Ombudsman?
TIA.
12 month tenancy coming to an end.
Three people on the tenancy agreement (Daughter + 2 others).
All 3 jointly/severally liable as per usual.
Daughter’s name appears first on agreement followed by the others names. Daughter’s home address (ours) is named as contact address. All rental payments were required to be made as a single payment to the agent by my daughter, including deposit (rather than by each tenant individually).
Q1. As she paid the initial deposit should it be returned to her to then distribute back to the others, or can the agent/landlord decide to give it back to all three tenants individually? I was under the impression that it must go back the same way it came in.
Q2. Although the keys were handed over on the tenancy start date, the property had not (in the opinions of all three parents) been “professionally cleaned” nor was it ready. E.g. the sofas, mattresses and curtains were heavily soiled, there were bed bugs on two beds, smoke alarms still needed to be replaced, some bulbs were out (nothing major). Mould in shower area and grout. Some quite bad mould discovered under the kitchen cupboards too. We are not going to book a professional clean because of the above but will instead spend a few hours doing it properly ourselves. It will be left in a better condition than we found it. They’ve quoted around £350 to clean a 3 bed flat. For that amount I’d want to be there to see what they do but unfortunately it would be the day after the tenancy ends. And we would tied to using their preferred suppliers in any case.
Anyone have experience of agents clawing back cleaning costs just because the tenants have chosen not to use their preferred contractors?
Q3. Finally, the actual move in date was delayed for the above reasons and a few more resulting in additional costs and hassle for us. The agent even agreed that things didn’t go well, and suggested revisiting the situation at a later date after everyone had settled in to see what could be done to compensate us. Since then they have gone back on their word. If we get nowhere with their complaints procedure is it worth taking the case up with the Property Ombudsman?
TIA.
starbucks said:
A few queries I’d like some help/opinions on please. The story:
12 month tenancy coming to an end.
Three people on the tenancy agreement (Daughter + 2 others).
All 3 jointly/severally liable as per usual.
Daughter’s name appears first on agreement followed by the others names. Daughter’s home address (ours) is named as contact address. All rental payments were required to be made as a single payment to the agent by my daughter, including deposit (rather than by each tenant individually).
Q1. As she paid the initial deposit should it be returned to her to then distribute back to the others, or can the agent/landlord decide to give it back to all three tenants individually? I was under the impression that it must go back the same way it came in.
The deposit will almost certainly be held by the DPS (and if it's not in an approved deposit scheme then you have some big boots with which to kick the agent) and the return of the deposit is arranged between the tenants and the DPS. The DPS will ask the tenants how much they want refunded into which bank account, so it doesn't necessarily all come back to one tenant for re-distribution. 12 month tenancy coming to an end.
Three people on the tenancy agreement (Daughter + 2 others).
All 3 jointly/severally liable as per usual.
Daughter’s name appears first on agreement followed by the others names. Daughter’s home address (ours) is named as contact address. All rental payments were required to be made as a single payment to the agent by my daughter, including deposit (rather than by each tenant individually).
Q1. As she paid the initial deposit should it be returned to her to then distribute back to the others, or can the agent/landlord decide to give it back to all three tenants individually? I was under the impression that it must go back the same way it came in.
starbucks said:
Q2. Although the keys were handed over on the tenancy start date, the property had not (in the opinions of all three parents) been “professionally cleaned” nor was it ready. E.g. the sofas, mattresses and curtains were heavily soiled, there were bed bugs on two beds, smoke alarms still needed to be replaced, some bulbs were out (nothing major). Mould in shower area and grout. Some quite bad mould discovered under the kitchen cupboards too. We are not going to book a professional clean because of the above but will instead spend a few hours doing it properly ourselves. It will be left in a better condition than we found it. They’ve quoted around £350 to clean a 3 bed flat. For that amount I’d want to be there to see what they do but unfortunately it would be the day after the tenancy ends. And we would tied to using their preferred suppliers in any case.
There is no such a thing as a 'professional clean' as there is no professional association of cleaners. Do you have a moving-in inventory to show the condition at the start of the tenancy? If not then did you happen to take some good dated photos showing the soiling/mould/bed bugs? If you have either then remind the agent and be prepared to argue your case. If you don't then you can still argue your case but you'll have a harder time of it.
FWIW, if the deposit is with the DPS then you can request that they sort out any disputes about deductions from the deposit, and they very much favour the tenant over the agent/landlord. If you argue your case hard you will probably find that the agent backs down before it gets to this stage.
starbucks said:
Anyone have experience of agents clawing back cleaning costs just because the tenants have chosen not to use their preferred contractors?
Clean is clean. It doesn't matter who did the cleaning. Any deduction that was dependant upon using preferred contractors would be easily challenged. starbucks said:
Q3. Finally, the actual move in date was delayed for the above reasons and a few more resulting in additional costs and hassle for us. The agent even agreed that things didn’t go well, and suggested revisiting the situation at a later date after everyone had settled in to see what could be done to compensate us. Since then they have gone back on their word. If we get nowhere with their complaints procedure is it worth taking the case up with the Property Ombudsman?
Probably water under the bridge with this one, but if the property wasn't available for the tenants to use from the first day of the tenancy agreement, AND you can prove this (an eMail admitting as much from the agent would be good) then you have firm ground upon which to stand when it comes to the other bits such as cleaning and whatnot. In short: stand your ground and argue the toss politely but firmly with the agent.
starbucks said:
A few queries I’d like some help/opinions on please. The story:
Q2. Although the keys were handed over on the tenancy start date, the property had not (in the opinions of all three parents) been “professionally cleaned” nor was it ready. E.g. the sofas, mattresses and curtains were heavily soiled, there were bed bugs on two beds, smoke alarms still needed to be replaced, some bulbs were out (nothing major). Mould in shower area and grout. Some quite bad mould discovered under the kitchen cupboards too. We are not going to book a professional clean because of the above but will instead spend a few hours doing it properly ourselves. It will be left in a better condition than we found it. They’ve quoted around £350 to clean a 3 bed flat. For that amount I’d want to be there to see what they do but unfortunately it would be the day after the tenancy ends. And we would tied to using their preferred suppliers in any case.
Anyone have experience of agents clawing back cleaning costs just because the tenants have chosen not to use their preferred contractors?
If the tenancy agreement requires the tenant to pay for the house to be cleaned at the end of the tenancy that amounts to charging the tenant a fee. The Tenant Fees Act 2019 prohibits charging tenants fees, so this term is unenforceable. If the property is left in a worse condition then when the tenancy started - and the onus is on the agent/landlord to prove this - then the agent/landlord could seek to recover its reasonable costs of cleaning from the deposit. The agent/landlord cannot 'clawback' anything from the deposit. They have to convince whoever runs the scheme to give it to them. I am an HMO landlord and I don't take deposits. More trouble than they're worth. Q2. Although the keys were handed over on the tenancy start date, the property had not (in the opinions of all three parents) been “professionally cleaned” nor was it ready. E.g. the sofas, mattresses and curtains were heavily soiled, there were bed bugs on two beds, smoke alarms still needed to be replaced, some bulbs were out (nothing major). Mould in shower area and grout. Some quite bad mould discovered under the kitchen cupboards too. We are not going to book a professional clean because of the above but will instead spend a few hours doing it properly ourselves. It will be left in a better condition than we found it. They’ve quoted around £350 to clean a 3 bed flat. For that amount I’d want to be there to see what they do but unfortunately it would be the day after the tenancy ends. And we would tied to using their preferred suppliers in any case.
Anyone have experience of agents clawing back cleaning costs just because the tenants have chosen not to use their preferred contractors?
I moved out of a rental property and had it cleaned by a 3rd party company in line with the tenancy agreement (and because I couldn't be bothered to do it myself).
The check out reported listed that all rooms had not been "professionally cleaned" and when I questioned the agent about what was specifically wrong they refused to answer and simply parroted the report of it was not "professionally cleaned" by one of their approved cleaners. When I looked back at the tenancy agreement it did in fact say the cleaning had to be done by an approved company but did not list which companies were included and when I asked the agent for a list, they refused to give it.
They ended up charging another £300 for it to be "cleaned" (even though it was!) and took it from the deposit. I wanted to take the case to the ombudsman but my flat mate needed his half of the deposit back quickly so we let it go.
Not sure if that is helpful, but I've been stung before.
The check out reported listed that all rooms had not been "professionally cleaned" and when I questioned the agent about what was specifically wrong they refused to answer and simply parroted the report of it was not "professionally cleaned" by one of their approved cleaners. When I looked back at the tenancy agreement it did in fact say the cleaning had to be done by an approved company but did not list which companies were included and when I asked the agent for a list, they refused to give it.
They ended up charging another £300 for it to be "cleaned" (even though it was!) and took it from the deposit. I wanted to take the case to the ombudsman but my flat mate needed his half of the deposit back quickly so we let it go.
Not sure if that is helpful, but I've been stung before.
starbucks said:
Q1. As she paid the initial deposit should it be returned to her to then distribute back to the others, or can the agent/landlord decide to give it back to all three tenants individually? I was under the impression that it must go back the same way it came in.
Lead tenant can arrange payment to whoeverstarbucks said:
Q2. Although the keys were handed over on the tenancy start date, the property had not (in the opinions of all three parents) been “professionally cleaned” nor was it ready. E.g. the sofas, mattresses and curtains were heavily soiled, there were bed bugs on two beds, smoke alarms still needed to be replaced, some bulbs were out (nothing major). Mould in shower area and grout. Some quite bad mould discovered under the kitchen cupboards too. We are not going to book a professional clean because of the above but will instead spend a few hours doing it properly ourselves. It will be left in a better condition than we found it. They’ve quoted around £350 to clean a 3 bed flat. For that amount I’d want to be there to see what they do but unfortunately it would be the day after the tenancy ends. And we would tied to using their preferred suppliers in any case.
I am assuming all of this was noted on the inventory? I'm also assuming you have photos of all this? I ask this as when one of mine was at Uni I moved them in and I told them to take a picture of the damaged light shade and punch damage to the wall and send the pictures to the agent. Of course they ignored my advice and come move out time guess what damage they were charged for?There is no such thing as a professional clean. It's actually a clean to a good standard and can be done by your daughter and her friends. Again, photos, photos and more photos.
Any deductions can be disputed if your daughter thinks they are unfair.
starbucks said:
Anyone have experience of agents clawing back cleaning costs just because the tenants have chosen not to use their preferred contractors?
They can try but it can be disputed with whatever scheme the money is held. Again, they will need an inventory and before and after pictures to support their claim. You might also which to confirm what your daughter thinks is regarded as clean and the reality (they are usually different).starbucks said:
Q3. Finally, the actual move in date was delayed for the above reasons and a few more resulting in additional costs and hassle for us. The agent even agreed that things didn’t go well, and suggested revisiting the situation at a later date after everyone had settled in to see what could be done to compensate us. Since then they have gone back on their word. If we get nowhere with their complaints procedure is it worth taking the case up with the Property Ombudsman?
Why leave this until now? Should have been dealt with at the time but I'd imagine no rent payable between tenancy start date and when the issues were actually resolved, but that should have been dealt with in the following rent period.Edited by Sir Bagalot on Tuesday 8th August 13:38
Thank you for the responses - all are useful. In answer to the questions - yes, plenty of photos and video taken by me at the beginning of the tenancy. Surprisingly, the 150 page check-in report the agent used features photos and comments confirming that the flat wasn’t as clean as it should have been. They obviously haven’t paid much attention to it. They want the carpets steam cleaned on moving out, yet it doesn’t request that in the agreement.
The potential concern is whether complaining like this is likely to lead to blacklisting for future properties - however it’s not a particularly worrying aspect as there are other agents out there should the need arise.
The tenants have been excellent - never missed a rent payment, always paid on time, and only asked for stuff that really needed to be done. I just hate it when people agree to do something and then go back on their word.(I know agents are notorious for this but wouldn’t it be great if they didn’t lie so much).
The potential concern is whether complaining like this is likely to lead to blacklisting for future properties - however it’s not a particularly worrying aspect as there are other agents out there should the need arise.
The tenants have been excellent - never missed a rent payment, always paid on time, and only asked for stuff that really needed to be done. I just hate it when people agree to do something and then go back on their word.(I know agents are notorious for this but wouldn’t it be great if they didn’t lie so much).
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