Council wrongly attempting to fine for littering
Discussion
Hello PH, I have a question based on a letter my wife has received from a London borough.
They have a picture of a package wrapper with her name and our address on. It has been found in a random location that we have never been within miles of ever.
It seems fairly evident that either it was one of those lost deliveries that made the news around June, or potentially has been blown about out of the rubbish truck at some point.
Nevertheless, they have issued an FPN to her for littering, despite the fact she has never been anywhere near the location, and the fact that the fault would lie either with the delivery company or refuse removal service.
She has already written to contest this, but unsurprisingly the brains at the council can't understand that and say that the address on the package means it was "linked to our address". And that's that - they want her to contest in a Magistrate's Court as apparently they have no grounds for appeal on FPNs.
Any advice or help here?
Many thanks in advance.
They have a picture of a package wrapper with her name and our address on. It has been found in a random location that we have never been within miles of ever.
It seems fairly evident that either it was one of those lost deliveries that made the news around June, or potentially has been blown about out of the rubbish truck at some point.
Nevertheless, they have issued an FPN to her for littering, despite the fact she has never been anywhere near the location, and the fact that the fault would lie either with the delivery company or refuse removal service.
She has already written to contest this, but unsurprisingly the brains at the council can't understand that and say that the address on the package means it was "linked to our address". And that's that - they want her to contest in a Magistrate's Court as apparently they have no grounds for appeal on FPNs.
Any advice or help here?
Many thanks in advance.
Tell them to take her to court, inform the Mags that you have never been to that location and, quite clearly, an item could end up just about anywhere by an infinte list of means. I’d be inclined to first ask the council to disclose their evidence of your wife having commited the offence, which of course will be zero; you can then point this out in court. Utterly desperate, what a bunch of complete muppets.
Edited to add: They may well try to imply that you have used the services of a private waste carrier who has improperly disposed of the waste. If you can confirm that you have not, that will presumably help.
Edited to add: They may well try to imply that you have used the services of a private waste carrier who has improperly disposed of the waste. If you can confirm that you have not, that will presumably help.
Southerner said:
Tell them to take her to court, inform the Mags that you have never been to that location and, quite clearly, an item could end up just about anywhere by an infinte list of means. I’d be inclined to first ask the council to disclose their evidence of your wife having commited the offence, which of course will be zero; you can then point this out in court. Utterly desperate, what a bunch of complete muppets.
Edited to add: They may well try to imply that you have used the services of a private waste carrier who has improperly disposed of the waste. If you can confirm that you have not, that will presumably help.
Thanks! Yup it seems that's the route we'll be going given their reply. It's odd that they're basically in breach of all of the Government's and DEFRA's guidance on application of FPNs here but seem to be trying to proceed anyway, a bunch of muppets indeed.Edited to add: They may well try to imply that you have used the services of a private waste carrier who has improperly disposed of the waste. If you can confirm that you have not, that will presumably help.
Yup that's correct we haven't had any private waste carriers. Just the usual county council refuse removal service once a week.
Austin_Metro said:
s p a c e m a n said:
Tear off their name and return address from their letter, put it on the floor and photograph it, send them a fine for littering.
Winner. Or ask them on the basis of your photographic evidence to issue a FPN to the responsible body. You could also contact your MP or the media.
This is an unpleasant situation OP...
Likely a fly-tip site has been trawled by the council for evidence of the guilty party and for whatever reason your old packaging was part of the dumped waste.
A jury would not convict - but one wonders if magistrates go on 'probability' basis and wave these through on the council say-so unless you can 'prove the negative' of your non-involvement in the dumping.
I suggest one of those £5 legal advice sites might be worth your while?
Likely a fly-tip site has been trawled by the council for evidence of the guilty party and for whatever reason your old packaging was part of the dumped waste.
A jury would not convict - but one wonders if magistrates go on 'probability' basis and wave these through on the council say-so unless you can 'prove the negative' of your non-involvement in the dumping.
I suggest one of those £5 legal advice sites might be worth your while?
What’s a “package wrapper”?
If it was say, a letter, sent to you then it’s seems just as likely the post office lost it. Or the sender.
If it’s criminal and beyond reasonable doubt applies as the standard of proof those alternatives suggest there is doubt.
Tell us what it was and we can come up with reasonable doubt…
If it was say, a letter, sent to you then it’s seems just as likely the post office lost it. Or the sender.
If it’s criminal and beyond reasonable doubt applies as the standard of proof those alternatives suggest there is doubt.
Tell us what it was and we can come up with reasonable doubt…
petrolbloke said:
Austin_Metro said:
s p a c e m a n said:
Tear off their name and return address from their letter, put it on the floor and photograph it, send them a fine for littering.
Winner. Or ask them on the basis of your photographic evidence to issue a FPN to the responsible body. You could also contact your MP or the media.
Canon_Fodder said:
This is an unpleasant situation OP...
Likely a fly-tip site has been trawled by the council for evidence of the guilty party and for whatever reason your old packaging was part of the dumped waste.
A jury would not convict - but one wonders if magistrates go on 'probability' basis and wave these through on the council say-so unless you can 'prove the negative' of your non-involvement in the dumping.
I suggest one of those £5 legal advice sites might be worth your while?
It seems like precisely that judging that the picture has a number of dumped parcels and the street location looks to be near a number of large recycling & other waste bins. Might go down the legal advice route.Likely a fly-tip site has been trawled by the council for evidence of the guilty party and for whatever reason your old packaging was part of the dumped waste.
A jury would not convict - but one wonders if magistrates go on 'probability' basis and wave these through on the council say-so unless you can 'prove the negative' of your non-involvement in the dumping.
I suggest one of those £5 legal advice sites might be worth your while?
zarjaz1991 said:
It’s for the council to prove you are guilty.
You need to ask them to provide the evidence they intend to rely on.
They won’t have any.
I agree. They have the picture of the parcel stacked with a host of others. Already clearly disposed of and torn open, so not sure how they thought it sensible, but alas.You need to ask them to provide the evidence they intend to rely on.
They won’t have any.
Austin_Metro said:
What’s a “package wrapper”?
If it was say, a letter, sent to you then it’s seems just as likely the post office lost it. Or the sender.
If it’s criminal and beyond reasonable doubt applies as the standard of proof those alternatives suggest there is doubt.
Tell us what it was and we can come up with reasonable doubt…
It was a package for some baby clothing items, comes in one of those grey/white plastic bags that one tears open and then can toss in the bin. In the picture sent it is obvious it was torn open to take the items out (when we received it weeks prior) and then we've thrown it out. Now somehow it has gone from the household refuse to a set of bins in another council.If it was say, a letter, sent to you then it’s seems just as likely the post office lost it. Or the sender.
If it’s criminal and beyond reasonable doubt applies as the standard of proof those alternatives suggest there is doubt.
Tell us what it was and we can come up with reasonable doubt…
That's absurd, given the trail of debris our local binmen often leave in their wake.
I could be wrong about this but be careful with "see you in court", my understanding of parking fines is that they take you to court for non payment of the fine - which will have now escalated to a tasty 500 or whatever - rather than the offence itself. Which of course you're guilty of, regardless of the pretext.
These are your rights.
I could be wrong about this but be careful with "see you in court", my understanding of parking fines is that they take you to court for non payment of the fine - which will have now escalated to a tasty 500 or whatever - rather than the offence itself. Which of course you're guilty of, regardless of the pretext.
These are your rights.
200Plus Club said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
And how would that help in this instance?
Was thinking exactly the same, unless it's an AI shredder of some sort that can manage his case and represent him in court perhaps? It is remarkable what "they" can do these days....I got a shredder because I was printing and later discarding a lot of confidentail banking and accounting information relating to my clients, but the habit of shreddingbefore binning has now extended to my personal stuff too
Fast and Spurious said:
QBee said:
Buy a shredder. It has surprised me how much confidential stuff we throw away, never mind the business stuff I generate managing business finances from home.
Our addresses are confidential now?ive seen a trail of rubbish left behind the bin men , theyre the only people that cause litter /mess in out little village , so yes i do the same all names /address destroyed because i can see exactly what the o.p got coming to me
Fast and Spurious said:
QBee said:
Buy a shredder. It has surprised me how much confidential stuff we throw away, never mind the business stuff I generate managing business finances from home.
Our addresses are confidential now?If I were the OP, I'd gather some basic info for a few days before the alleged offence and for the day of the offence - say debit card statement showing you were miles away beforehand, or say you can obtain work CCTV showing you as being present.
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