House buying - Conveyancers' findings
Discussion
Daughter has recently bought her first house and the performance of the Conveyancers appears to be pretty poor. Aside from adding stamp duty to the bill, which she wasn't required to pay as a first-time buyer (well) under the threshold, she hasn't even been sent an account to show what she's paid for. My Daughter pointed out the error (re stamp duty) before sending monies to them, but of course it all has to happen rather quickly during completion.
There is another issue which is of concern to me. the house has a kitchen/diner, and I suspected there was originally a wall between the kitchen and the dining room. My Daughter asked specifically if a wall had been removed, and was told it hadn't. As always the internet can be useful, and I managed to find plan views of a a neighbouring house of the same design in the street, and indeed it had a wall where I expected it. Now she has the house, close inspection of the floor confirms there definitely was a wall. The seller (or his Daughter answering on his behalf as Power of Attorney) said there had been no changes whilst he lived there - he'd lived there over 20 years, so I've no concerns it's about to collapse!, and accept the Daughter may not have known if changes were made by a previous owner. I consider this matter should have been found in the LA searches and confirmed in writing (especially as it was a specific question), and my concern is if my Daughter could have an issue if she wanted to sell in the future. So, to be more brief:-
1) Should our Daughter have an itemised bill showing what she's paid for (including searches)
2) Have the Conveyancers made an error (not finding alteration to building)
3) Does this need 'correcting' in any way for the future.
TIA
There is another issue which is of concern to me. the house has a kitchen/diner, and I suspected there was originally a wall between the kitchen and the dining room. My Daughter asked specifically if a wall had been removed, and was told it hadn't. As always the internet can be useful, and I managed to find plan views of a a neighbouring house of the same design in the street, and indeed it had a wall where I expected it. Now she has the house, close inspection of the floor confirms there definitely was a wall. The seller (or his Daughter answering on his behalf as Power of Attorney) said there had been no changes whilst he lived there - he'd lived there over 20 years, so I've no concerns it's about to collapse!, and accept the Daughter may not have known if changes were made by a previous owner. I consider this matter should have been found in the LA searches and confirmed in writing (especially as it was a specific question), and my concern is if my Daughter could have an issue if she wanted to sell in the future. So, to be more brief:-
1) Should our Daughter have an itemised bill showing what she's paid for (including searches)
2) Have the Conveyancers made an error (not finding alteration to building)
3) Does this need 'correcting' in any way for the future.
TIA
1) There’s no standard for this. Conveyancing is often done as a flat fee that is quoted for up front and the breakdown is usually delivered with the quote before you give instructions. Did you have this? There’s also quite often a final statement of some sort that indicates how much money they want from you for completion, and where that figure comes from. But as I say, there’s no fixed rules or standards.
2) conveyancers don’t do the sort of internet sleuthing that you have done and for any questions about the specific property they rely on the buyer to raise them with the conveyancers. Otherwise they will only ask general/non-specific questions and feed the results back to you. If you had issues with the opening you should have asked the conveyancers to raise a specific question, but given what you’ve said you probably would have got a bland non-answer back from the vendor such as “our client has no information about the opening and suggests you conduct your own enquiries” ie it will be down to you to investigate. Caveat emptor!
3) no, it’s a non issue. If you sell and the the question is raised then just reply as above.
2) conveyancers don’t do the sort of internet sleuthing that you have done and for any questions about the specific property they rely on the buyer to raise them with the conveyancers. Otherwise they will only ask general/non-specific questions and feed the results back to you. If you had issues with the opening you should have asked the conveyancers to raise a specific question, but given what you’ve said you probably would have got a bland non-answer back from the vendor such as “our client has no information about the opening and suggests you conduct your own enquiries” ie it will be down to you to investigate. Caveat emptor!
3) no, it’s a non issue. If you sell and the the question is raised then just reply as above.
Our buyers solicitor is a chump.
I don't mind them.asking questions that need asking but then coming back and asking stupid supplementary questions.
The house in 1848. Somewhere in the past someone has attempted to make the cellar less damp, but there's still condensation on the walls as pointed out by the valuation home buyer report.. There's a 2 foot deep hole with a sump pump in the corner. And an a dehumidifier on a timer.
You are going to get condensation.
When was the sump pump installed? The hole or the pump. I put a new pump £56, from screw fix in the hole 2 years ago after the old one failed. When you say installed, if has a quick release to connect to the plastic pipe and it plugs into a 240 volt socket. The hole? 1848 ? No idea.
When was the dehumidifier installed ? Its not. It sits on the floor. Is plugged in. I replaced the timer in 2020 after the previous one keep triping the electrics. £9 quid for 2 at screw fix.
When was the damp proving installed? Has it got damp proofing ? No idea. There's a cement/concrete floor, but no idea if there's an damp proof membrane under it?
My answers.
No idea. Previous owner didn't tell us. Never thought to ask.
In reality. Don't store anything down there that might go rusty. Or be in a cardboard box. The house isn't going to fall down and I spent £8k on the roof to make it dry and warm, because leaking and no insulation in loft. Now got it.
They ask. When was the chimney sweep?
2022. By me. I'll leave the brushes.
Supplementary question. Have you got a certicate for the sweeping?
No. It was by me. And there's a CO alarm in the room, so if there's a problem, you'll know.
Is there an installation certificate, for the log burner? Yes. You've got a copy, from.the previous owner in 2010.
This is after they demanded we exchange and complete on 31st August, and I said I was happy to exchange 31st but completion would need to be 6th Sept.
Then I find out the buyer never knew his solicitor was asking for that date. And was surprised to hear that.
I don't mind them.asking questions that need asking but then coming back and asking stupid supplementary questions.
The house in 1848. Somewhere in the past someone has attempted to make the cellar less damp, but there's still condensation on the walls as pointed out by the valuation home buyer report.. There's a 2 foot deep hole with a sump pump in the corner. And an a dehumidifier on a timer.
You are going to get condensation.
When was the sump pump installed? The hole or the pump. I put a new pump £56, from screw fix in the hole 2 years ago after the old one failed. When you say installed, if has a quick release to connect to the plastic pipe and it plugs into a 240 volt socket. The hole? 1848 ? No idea.
When was the dehumidifier installed ? Its not. It sits on the floor. Is plugged in. I replaced the timer in 2020 after the previous one keep triping the electrics. £9 quid for 2 at screw fix.
When was the damp proving installed? Has it got damp proofing ? No idea. There's a cement/concrete floor, but no idea if there's an damp proof membrane under it?
My answers.
No idea. Previous owner didn't tell us. Never thought to ask.
In reality. Don't store anything down there that might go rusty. Or be in a cardboard box. The house isn't going to fall down and I spent £8k on the roof to make it dry and warm, because leaking and no insulation in loft. Now got it.
They ask. When was the chimney sweep?
2022. By me. I'll leave the brushes.
Supplementary question. Have you got a certicate for the sweeping?
No. It was by me. And there's a CO alarm in the room, so if there's a problem, you'll know.
Is there an installation certificate, for the log burner? Yes. You've got a copy, from.the previous owner in 2010.
This is after they demanded we exchange and complete on 31st August, and I said I was happy to exchange 31st but completion would need to be 6th Sept.
Then I find out the buyer never knew his solicitor was asking for that date. And was surprised to hear that.
Having sold/bought 3 times in the last few years I can convincingly tell you they are all sh!t.
If it weren't for me pushing along the way all would have taken significantly longer than they should & all were completely incompetent.
The final one had us sat at the estate agents for over 6 hours "waiting for the money" when I specifically told them they had it over 2 hours before the start of that 6 hours wait, and even then, if I hadn't pestered again we wouldn't have had the keys before the estate agent closed for the day.
If it weren't for me pushing along the way all would have taken significantly longer than they should & all were completely incompetent.
The final one had us sat at the estate agents for over 6 hours "waiting for the money" when I specifically told them they had it over 2 hours before the start of that 6 hours wait, and even then, if I hadn't pestered again we wouldn't have had the keys before the estate agent closed for the day.
E-bmw said:
Having sold/bought 3 times in the last few years I can convincingly tell you they are all sh!t.
I have done a dozen transactions in the last 10 years. I can name one set of solicitors who are brilliant bit they are expensive. The most expensive bunch I ever used were the worst, a fancy London outfit who took £300k in stamp duty off me then failed to pay it to HMRC despite numerous warnings, causing HMRC to proceed legal action against me. E-bmw said:
Having sold/bought 3 times in the last few years I can convincingly tell you they are all sh!t.
We’ve used the same woman for a while as she’s bang on, even followed her when she moved firms.Last house we sold, the buyers solicitors hadn’t asked anything, she was chasing them (as to prevent a last minute showstopper), they just didn’t have a clue what they were doing.
They in fact omitted to ask for a couple of pretty important documents, which we didn’t have.
Edited by Random Account No6 on Sunday 3rd September 12:45
In relation to the building alterations depending on the construction it's possible it wouldn't be on a local authority search. On my first house I had a seperate toilet and bathroom which was separated by a non structural dividing wall which I removed having confirmed there was no building regs or planning required.
It was picked up on by the surveyor in my case and I had saved the emails I had from the local authority confirming I didn't need any applications or building regs so I was able to provide those and no issues but the conveyancer would not have known about the alteration from searches as no formal applications were ever made.
It was picked up on by the surveyor in my case and I had saved the emails I had from the local authority confirming I didn't need any applications or building regs so I was able to provide those and no issues but the conveyancer would not have known about the alteration from searches as no formal applications were ever made.
When we have sold, our solicitors have been great, however:
I believe that houses ought to have ‘service histories’.
Coming from an engineering background, where record-retention is paramount, I provided my buyers with detailed photos, history, and bills of every alteration, even a list of all the paint colours on the walls.
We have moved into an old houses (1830s) that is solid stone and built like a brick s
thouse (although that itself is now incorporated indoors).
Although the seller’s daughter may not have seen any alterations, I am sure she would have been aware of differences with neighbouring houses.
Surveying of houses seems to be money for old rope, they don’t tell you any more than you can see with your own eyes. Next time, I would employ a structural civil engineer.
Oh, and regards damp-proofing. You can’t add modern plaster to an old house, you need lime mortar and lime plaster. I re-did our walls, makes a tremendous difference. I see old houses being renovated with modern plaster and shake my head in dismay.
And another, do your own searches for:
Radon
Flood risk (Scotland, England, Wales, NI all have their own authorities on this)
Planning applications, pending, and past (look into the local authority website), similarly look into the Local Development Plan, for upcoming new roads, housing estates, and so on.
In essence - question everything.
I believe that houses ought to have ‘service histories’.
Coming from an engineering background, where record-retention is paramount, I provided my buyers with detailed photos, history, and bills of every alteration, even a list of all the paint colours on the walls.
We have moved into an old houses (1830s) that is solid stone and built like a brick s
thouse (although that itself is now incorporated indoors).Although the seller’s daughter may not have seen any alterations, I am sure she would have been aware of differences with neighbouring houses.
Surveying of houses seems to be money for old rope, they don’t tell you any more than you can see with your own eyes. Next time, I would employ a structural civil engineer.
Oh, and regards damp-proofing. You can’t add modern plaster to an old house, you need lime mortar and lime plaster. I re-did our walls, makes a tremendous difference. I see old houses being renovated with modern plaster and shake my head in dismay.
And another, do your own searches for:
Radon
Flood risk (Scotland, England, Wales, NI all have their own authorities on this)
Planning applications, pending, and past (look into the local authority website), similarly look into the Local Development Plan, for upcoming new roads, housing estates, and so on.
In essence - question everything.
I will be interested to find out by inference how good the local solicitors/conveyancers are near me.
Seven new houses are being built near me and will shortly be for sale. They are opposite a level crossing over the East Coast main line, so buyers won’t have to mind the noise of trains and barriers every 5 minutes, 18 hours a day, seven days a week. But the 4 bed houses right along the railway line seem to have sold ok a few years ago.
However, since they started building those houses, the owners of the next house and plot along from the seven new houses have managed to get planning permission for a 19 pitch traveller site. Nothing wrong with traveller sites of course. But I would want to be in possession of all the facts before committing to buy if it was me.
Seven new houses are being built near me and will shortly be for sale. They are opposite a level crossing over the East Coast main line, so buyers won’t have to mind the noise of trains and barriers every 5 minutes, 18 hours a day, seven days a week. But the 4 bed houses right along the railway line seem to have sold ok a few years ago.
However, since they started building those houses, the owners of the next house and plot along from the seven new houses have managed to get planning permission for a 19 pitch traveller site. Nothing wrong with traveller sites of course. But I would want to be in possession of all the facts before committing to buy if it was me.
When i sold my leasehold flat 4 years ago our conveyancer was great but the buyers seemed completely useless. Had many bizarre queries but the best one was their solicitors asking whether i had permission to replace the boiler a year earlier and they wanted written permission from the landlord for use of the heating as they didn't believe the buyer would have exclusive of the boiler and radiators. Who on eearth else would they think would use it?!?
KAgantua said:
BertBert said:
rlw said:
Not his job.....
What is the surveyor's job then?As for the ‘head-and-shoulders’ review of lofts - may as well not bother.
MustangGT said:
rlw said:
Countdown said:
Apologies if I've missed this but why didn't the Survey pick up the fact that a (potentially supporting) wall had been removed?
Not his job.....
Of course it is, that is why you have a survey.
Survey Report said:
26.1(i) Murphy Surveyors Ltd has made reasonable efforts to ensure that this property contains the same number of internal and external walls as it had at the time of construction. However prospective purchasers or tenants should not rely on this as a statement or representations of fact, but must satisfy themselves by inspection or otherwise, as to the accuracy of the information. The information does not constitute or form part of any contract. Murphy Surveyors Ltd will accept no liability whatsoever if the house falls down on Day 1 after completion. as a result of a lack of walls, lintels, foundations, bricks, joists, cross-members, trusses or any supporting component or part thereof. it is strongly recommended that prospective purchasers or tenants commission a Buildings Survey if they require any further assurance.
Seems pretty clear to me.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff