Change of speed limit

[sergeantstingray]

Can anyone please clarify, when travelling along the road shown in the link below at 70mph (as indicated by the NSL sign when joining the road about a mile earlier), does the speed limit actually drop to 30mph at this point due to the presence of street lights? To teh letter of teh Highway Code, I would assume it does, but it would seem like a dangeround manoeuvre to make this reduction in speed on such a big, fast road!

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8597983,-2.1821502...

[GroundEffect]

sergeantstingray said:

Can anyone please clarify, when travelling along the road shown in the link below at 70mph (as indicated by the NSL sign when joining the road about a mile earlier), does the speed limit actually drop to 30mph at this point due to the presence of street lights? To teh letter of teh Highway Code, I would assume it does, but it would seem like a dangeround manoeuvre to make this reduction in speed on such a big, fast road!

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8597983,-2.1821502...

There's a road near me that is a dual carriageway with NSL signs, which then goes into a street-lit area and then down to single lane. All whilst remaining NSL. In my mind it SHOULD mean 70mph on DC, then 30mph on street-lit area (and that's with lamp posts not protected by guard rails) then back up to 60mph after the street lamps are ended....

But everyone just goes 70mph on DC and 60mph on single carriageway so going 30mph would have you getting all sorts of anger from others (and the road is semi-rural so seems inappropriate for 30mph).

[fozzymandeus]

NSL all the way down there.

[ARHarh]

Street lights will indicate 30mph if close enough together unless otherwise stated. So national speed limit sign will mean it overrides the street lights.

[BertBert]

fozzymandeus said:

NSL all the way down there.

The street lamps are not in use, but when they are, unless signage to the contrary it will be 30.
However, when they finish the works, they will almost certainly put the appropriate speed signs up.

[Riley Blue]

ARHarh said:

Street lights will indicate 30mph if close enough together unless otherwise stated. So national speed limit sign will mean it overrides the street lights.

There is a NSL roundabout in Chesterfield as a result of that bright idea.

[Pica-Pica]

If the street lamps are adequately close together, then, yes it is formally a 30mph limit unless there are repeaters that say otherwise.

The practical situation is that they want to illuminate the roundabout to enhance safety, but:
They cannot put a NSL repeater, as that would encourage people to attempt the NSL right up to and maybe through the roundabout.
If they want people to slow down and they need to put a 40mph signs up, but that would be a terminal 40mph sign and then repeaters.
So they have left it without speed signs, to avoid ‘clutter’ and so as not to detract from the roundabout and from the direction signs.

We had similar on a 40 stretch, that had street lights to illuminate a junction, and 40 repeaters to overrule the ‘street lamps means 30’ rule. That is history now, as the road has been reduced to a 30 along the stretch.

Edited by Pica-Pica on Tuesday 5th September 17:08

[Pica-Pica]

ARHarh said:

Street lights will indicate 30mph if close enough together unless otherwise stated. So national speed limit sign will mean it overrides the street lights.

Only if NSL repeaters are on the side of the road.

[sergeantstingray]

fozzymandeus said:

NSL all the way down there.

Even though there are street lights, which indicate a "built up area" and therefore 30mph?

[TikTak]

It's going to be NSL, especially if it was signed that just before.

The side roads and exits off the carriageway in that area go into a variety of speed zones, some of them 30, which are indicated.

Unlike the exit on the Zoons roundabout back towards Delta Way, which has no signs and is clearly still NSL.

[sergeantstingray]

TikTak said:

It's going to be NSL, especially if it was signed that just before.

The side roads and exits off the carriageway in that area go into a variety of speed zones, some of them 30, which are indicated.

Unlike the exit on the Zoons roundabout back towards Delta Way, which has no signs and is clearly still NSL.

This is what I don't understand. The highway code says streetlights mean 30mph unless signposted otherwise. In this case, there are street lights and no signs, so that would make it 30, but it appears not to be.

[Super superb]

The highway code states:

A speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) generally applies to all roads with street lights (excluding motorways) unless signs show otherwise.

I think the word generally is important it isn't a certainty

[AlexRS2782]

Was this not already answered on your previous thread on the subject?

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Your current Google maps link in this thread seems to link to the same area of the A417 pictured on the previous thread above.

[Mr Tidy]

The street lights don't necessarily mean there is a 30mph limit.

All of the A3 from Hook underpass towards London has street lights, but was always N/S/L until Robin Hood Gate IIRC - well it was until a 50 limit got imposed.

[martinbiz]

sergeantstingray said:

TikTak said:

It's going to be NSL, especially if it was signed that just before.

The side roads and exits off the carriageway in that area go into a variety of speed zones, some of them 30, which are indicated.

Unlike the exit on the Zoons roundabout back towards Delta Way, which has no signs and is clearly still NSL.

This is what I don't understand. The highway code says streetlights mean 30mph unless signposted otherwise. In this case, there are street lights and no signs, so that would make it 30, but it appears not to be.

It is signed by as NSL

[sergeantstingray]

martinbiz said:

It is signed by as NSL

Not where the street lights start though. So is it 70mph when you join the dual carriageway, but becomes 30mph when the lights appear. It seems nobody really knows!

[mudster]

The scenario doesn't comply with TSRG&D.

If the intended limit was 30mph, then 30 terminal signs should be sited at the limit change. If it is intended to keep NSL, then repeaters should be installed on those lighting posts.The signing is probably an oversight, and there are a few instances like this around the country.

A 30 limit is unlikely to be enforceable at the location in the link.

[martinbiz]

sergeantstingray said:

martinbiz said:

It is signed by as NSL

Not where the street lights start though. So is it 70mph when you join the dual carriageway, but becomes 30mph when the lights appear. It seems nobody really knows!

No, It seems some of us do know. It is signed NSL, so in the absence of further signage to the contrary it remains NSL whether a section is lit or not. It really isn't that hard to understand

[Welcome.]

I thought all junctions on major roads were lit.

[Fastdruid]

mudster said:

The scenario doesn't comply with TSRG&D.

If the intended limit was 30mph, then 30 terminal signs should be sited at the limit change. If it is intended to keep NSL, then repeaters should be installed on those lighting posts.The signing is probably an oversight, and there are a fewthousands and thousands of instances like this around the country.

FIFY.

Signage when you really look at it is terrible. In my local area alone I can think of huge numbers of inconsistencies.

As an example, where we live our road is off another road which was then off a B-road 40mph dual carriageway.

The turning off the dual carriageway wasn't signed as changing limit so until they dropped the dual carriageway limit to 30 it would have appeared to still be a 40. Now we all know it wasn't but it would have been hard to be enforced.

It's particularly bad when you look at NSL and "lighting", while its understandable why the rule exists it's so badly inconsistent that IMO it should be removed.

As an example, the old J3 on the M42 (now "fixed" because it's been dropped to 50mph). Roundabout has lights and 100% *WAS* NSL but from certain directions you won't see a single repeater (eg coming off the motorway from either direction and turning left/first exit).

Then J2 on the M42. Identical to J3 in terms of lighting but no repeaters on the roundabout. There is a single NSL repeater on the A441 exit, nothing else. There is also a services there. No speed limit signs going into or out of the services. The roundabout *is* an NSL (otherwise it wouldn't have a repeater on the A441 exit) but again depends on where you enter and exit.