Brake failure after being replaced
Discussion
A friend of mine, a single mother drives a 15 year old car, had her brakes replaced, cost was around £800, she had taken the car in with a noise, and that was the net result.
Fast forward several days, she is picking up her daughter from the airport , taking the A Roads, due to multiple motorway closures, complete brake failure. Got the car recovered, when she collected the car from the garage, she was greeted with a bunch of flowers, and an apology, and told that this is the end of the matter.
Apparently when recovery came out, one of the rear tyres was covered in brake fluid.
Only had a 10 minute conversation, and there is loads more to the story.
This one for trading standards or similar?
Fast forward several days, she is picking up her daughter from the airport , taking the A Roads, due to multiple motorway closures, complete brake failure. Got the car recovered, when she collected the car from the garage, she was greeted with a bunch of flowers, and an apology, and told that this is the end of the matter.
Apparently when recovery came out, one of the rear tyres was covered in brake fluid.
Only had a 10 minute conversation, and there is loads more to the story.
This one for trading standards or similar?
Complete brake failure should have been virtually impossible since introduction of mandatory dual circuit brakes back in 1967.
IIRC some cars have separate front and rear brakes, some have a diagonal set-up and there are also other possibilitiesl. The dual circuit approach is fully integrated with ABS systems.
Having once driven a car that burst a corroded metal brake pipe I can confirm it still gives you a nasty shock when you hit the brake pedal and very little seems to happen compared with normal braking.
IIRC some cars have separate front and rear brakes, some have a diagonal set-up and there are also other possibilitiesl. The dual circuit approach is fully integrated with ABS systems.
Having once driven a car that burst a corroded metal brake pipe I can confirm it still gives you a nasty shock when you hit the brake pedal and very little seems to happen compared with normal braking.
cuprabob said:
I was under the impression that complete brake failure due to fluid loss was not possible due to split hydraulic circuits. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's pretty scary trying to stop a car with just one front brake and the opposite rear brake.
Unfortunately not quite true as far as I know. Sudden fluid loss in any part of a split circuit will result in the pedal going to the floor when pressure is applied as fluid is pushed out of the leak - exactly the same as when bleeding one brake at a time.The split circuit design (again - in my limited experience) just means that a small amount of pressure will also be applied to the opposite circuit, but you will still have to keep pushing the pedal down to the floor and then lifting your foot - repeat until the master cylinder reservoir is empty, at which point you’re pushing air into the system and have no more available hydraulic effect.
Happy to be told I’m wrong but that’s my experience from a failed hose on a Fiesta and bleeding brakes on TTs :-)
/A
Sometime things go tits up when working on 15 year old cars. Sometimes old parts that looked ok while being worked on to get to other parts can fail just from being disturbed. If this is an unacceptable risk replace every single part, or dont drive such an old car. Some cars have more expensive maintenance than others. This can be controlled when choosing a car. Parental status has f
k all to do with anything whatsoever unless her lady parts somehow damaged a hydraulic component .
What do you propose the garage do? Has she suffered any loss she hasnt had put right?
k all to do with anything whatsoever unless her lady parts somehow damaged a hydraulic component .What do you propose the garage do? Has she suffered any loss she hasnt had put right?
Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Saturday 16th September 15:55
How do you know they didnt fit them correctly? Maybe the bleed nipple failed, maybe a flexi failed, maybe they unwittingly received a faulty caliper from a normally reputable supplier. Sometimes things dont go to plan even when you follow industry standard practices. This is more likely when presented with older cars that have probably been neglected given it was such a surprise it needed 800 quid of work, and that it wasnt serviced, otherwise the worn brakes would have been flagged before they started grinding.
Jeremy-75qq8 said:
They messed up. They fixed it. They didn’t blame anyone else. They said sorry. They gave flowers.
To be frank given the range of outcomes seems pretty good.
Should it have happened ? Of course not.
All of this. To be frank given the range of outcomes seems pretty good.
Should it have happened ? Of course not.
If your lady friend is not out of pocket as a result; recovery costs, repairs and collection of daughter all covered, I'd say she should file it under "s
t happens" and chalk it up to experience. It could have been a lot worse, but thankfully she's okay.
Must have given her a nasty fright though.
BTW I had a similar incident years ago with an Astra estate. I went offshore to work and left it with a garage for MoT, which required front discs and pads. Two miles after picking it up - zero brakes. Narrowly avoided a lady and small child on a crossing.
No harm done thank Providence but the garage did receive a bit of counselling.
Kwackersaki said:
£800 to change the brakes! Is that just pads or discs as well?
I’ve always done my own and last time it was less than £200 on my wife’s Fiesta, pads and discs all round.
Quite easy to get to on some cars, especially if a caliper or 2 is seized. I remember back in the early 2000s coming across a lexus that it was impossible to find aftermarket pads and discs for, and oem came to 390 just for the front discs pads and fitting kit. A lot of money in 2001. The customer wasnt happy. Not my fault they didnt buy a fiesta though.I’ve always done my own and last time it was less than £200 on my wife’s Fiesta, pads and discs all round.
Too many people who dontknowaboutcars give zero though to maintainance prices at purchase decision time, then blame the car or the mechanics when the chickens come home to roost.
alexmonkey said:
cuprabob said:
I was under the impression that complete brake failure due to fluid loss was not possible due to split hydraulic circuits. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's pretty scary trying to stop a car with just one front brake and the opposite rear brake.
Unfortunately not quite true as far as I know. Sudden fluid loss in any part of a split circuit will result in the pedal going to the floor when pressure is applied as fluid is pushed out of the leak - exactly the same as when bleeding one brake at a time.The split circuit design (again - in my limited experience) just means that a small amount of pressure will also be applied to the opposite circuit, but you will still have to keep pushing the pedal down to the floor and then lifting your foot - repeat until the master cylinder reservoir is empty, at which point you’re pushing air into the system and have no more available hydraulic effect.
Happy to be told I’m wrong but that’s my experience from a failed hose on a Fiesta and bleeding brakes on TTs :-)
/A
A split /dual circuit set up is segregated (hydraulically at least) all the way from the reservoir. It's two entirely separate hydraulic systems. If you look at the ABS block you will even notice six pipes - 2 in (for the two master cylinders) and 4 out (for 4 wheels). As to draining the reservoir and pumping air, if you look at the reservoir you'll notice a wall to ensure that emptying one circuit doesn't empty the other.
Obviously with two brakes working and two not, you will need to press harder to get a given level of braking force. That is what you experience when bleeding brakes and the pedal goes to the floor (you're not wrong about that bit).
Now, there ARE failure modes that cause complete brake failure... but a leak in one circuit is not one of them.
Edited by donkmeister on Saturday 16th September 16:31
A leak in one circuit does give a terrible pedal, diving to one side under braking and increased stopping distance which can be disconerting and scary, but the charectaristics are predictable and well described in any owners manual if anyone took the time to read up and learn about the machinery they are ooerating. Too many people are voluttarily clueless about day to day st everyone should know.
t everyone should know.donkmeister said:
alexmonkey said:
cuprabob said:
I was under the impression that complete brake failure due to fluid loss was not possible due to split hydraulic circuits. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's pretty scary trying to stop a car with just one front brake and the opposite rear brake.
Unfortunately not quite true as far as I know. Sudden fluid loss in any part of a split circuit will result in the pedal going to the floor when pressure is applied as fluid is pushed out of the leak - exactly the same as when bleeding one brake at a time.The split circuit design (again - in my limited experience) just means that a small amount of pressure will also be applied to the opposite circuit, but you will still have to keep pushing the pedal down to the floor and then lifting your foot - repeat until the master cylinder reservoir is empty, at which point you’re pushing air into the system and have no more available hydraulic effect.
Happy to be told I’m wrong but that’s my experience from a failed hose on a Fiesta and bleeding brakes on TTs :-)
/A
A split /dual circuit set up is segregated (hydraulically at least) all the way from the reservoir. It's two entirely separate hydraulic systems. If you look at the ABS block you will even notice six pipes - 2 in (for the two master cylinders) and 4 out (for 4 wheels). As to draining the reservoir and pumping air, if you look at the reservoir you'll notice a wall to ensure that emptying one circuit doesn't empty the other.
Obviously with two brakes working and two not, you will need to press harder to get a given level of braking force. That is what you experience when bleeding brakes and the pedal goes to the floor (you're not wrong about that bit).
Now, there ARE failure modes that cause complete brake failure... but a leak in one circuit is not one of them.
Edited by donkmeister on Saturday 16th September 16:31
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