20 mph limit, no TRO, is it enforceable?
Discussion
Apologies for the long post, I'll summarise at the end.
Our local council (Scottish Borders), much like the Welsh Assembly, did a controversial one year trial of changing all built up 30mph limits in the region to 20mph in the name of "safety".
The trial had very dubious results and an even more dubious public consultation process, but in spite of this, the councillors voted to make it permanent.
Unlike the Welsh Assembly however, they didn't really bother with due procedure , just leaving the signage from the trial in place and publicising that the reduced limits were now permanent. There was some talk of the Scottish Parliament introducing a similar nationwide scheme in 2024 so I suspect that the councillors decided to avoid the effort and expense of formalising and rely on the parliament introducing the legislation soon.
Bear Scotland (who are responsible for the few trunk roads within the region) obtained Traffic Regulation Orders for their sections of built up areas within the region, but as far as I have been able to find out, none of the other council controlled roads have a TRO in place for their posted 20 mph limits.
I'm hoping that someone with more knowledge of this and who knows where to look can (a) confirm that there are indeed no TROs in place and (b) if correct, comment on the status of the posted but not legal reduced limits.
TDLR. If due process for introducing a speed limit is not followed by the roads authority, does that limit have any legal bearing?
Our local council (Scottish Borders), much like the Welsh Assembly, did a controversial one year trial of changing all built up 30mph limits in the region to 20mph in the name of "safety".
The trial had very dubious results and an even more dubious public consultation process, but in spite of this, the councillors voted to make it permanent.
Unlike the Welsh Assembly however, they didn't really bother with due procedure , just leaving the signage from the trial in place and publicising that the reduced limits were now permanent. There was some talk of the Scottish Parliament introducing a similar nationwide scheme in 2024 so I suspect that the councillors decided to avoid the effort and expense of formalising and rely on the parliament introducing the legislation soon.
Bear Scotland (who are responsible for the few trunk roads within the region) obtained Traffic Regulation Orders for their sections of built up areas within the region, but as far as I have been able to find out, none of the other council controlled roads have a TRO in place for their posted 20 mph limits.
I'm hoping that someone with more knowledge of this and who knows where to look can (a) confirm that there are indeed no TROs in place and (b) if correct, comment on the status of the posted but not legal reduced limits.
TDLR. If due process for introducing a speed limit is not followed by the roads authority, does that limit have any legal bearing?
If your councillor(s) voted in favour of the measure then don't vote for them next time, vote instead for someone who is in favour of returning to the previous limit. If enough people agree with you then they'll be out. It's the only thing they truly understand. Too many people moan about things like 20mph limits and then dutifully vote the same councillors that supported it back in.
In Wales there was supposedly a petition with over half a million "signatures" opposing the nationwide 20mph limit. I would feel confident of winning a bet that a good proportion of those people will still vote Labour next time though. Well you reap what you sow. If you don't like it then don't vote for them. If you vote for them then suck it up because you played a part in giving them the power to do it. You can't have it both ways.
In Wales there was supposedly a petition with over half a million "signatures" opposing the nationwide 20mph limit. I would feel confident of winning a bet that a good proportion of those people will still vote Labour next time though. Well you reap what you sow. If you don't like it then don't vote for them. If you vote for them then suck it up because you played a part in giving them the power to do it. You can't have it both ways.
siremoon said:
If your councillor(s) voted in favour of the measure then don't vote for them next time, vote instead for someone who is in favour of returning to the previous limit. If enough people agree with you then they'll be out. It's the only thing they truly understand. Too many people moan about things like 20mph limits and then dutifully vote the same councillors that supported it back in.
In Wales there was supposedly a petition with over half a million "signatures" opposing the nationwide 20mph limit. I would feel confident of winning a bet that a good proportion of those people will still vote Labour next time though. Well you reap what you sow. If you don't like it then don't vote for them. If you vote for them then suck it up because you played a part in giving them the power to do it. You can't have it both ways.
People don't vote for councillors on a single issue. It may also be the case that all councillors support a policy that you don't agree with.In Wales there was supposedly a petition with over half a million "signatures" opposing the nationwide 20mph limit. I would feel confident of winning a bet that a good proportion of those people will still vote Labour next time though. Well you reap what you sow. If you don't like it then don't vote for them. If you vote for them then suck it up because you played a part in giving them the power to do it. You can't have it both ways.
siremoon said:
If your councillor(s) voted in favour of the measure then don't vote for them next time, vote instead for someone who is in favour of returning to the previous limit. If enough people agree with you then they'll be out. It's the only thing they truly understand. Too many people moan about things like 20mph limits and then dutifully vote the same councillors that supported it back in.
In Wales there was supposedly a petition with over half a million "signatures" opposing the nationwide 20mph limit. I would feel confident of winning a bet that a good proportion of those people will still vote Labour next time though. Well you reap what you sow. If you don't like it then don't vote for them. If you vote for them then suck it up because you played a part in giving them the power to do it. You can't have it both ways.
This.In Wales there was supposedly a petition with over half a million "signatures" opposing the nationwide 20mph limit. I would feel confident of winning a bet that a good proportion of those people will still vote Labour next time though. Well you reap what you sow. If you don't like it then don't vote for them. If you vote for them then suck it up because you played a part in giving them the power to do it. You can't have it both ways.
No ideas for a name said:
siremoon said:
If your councillor(s) voted in favour of the measure then don't vote for them next time, vote instead for someone who is in favour of returning to the previous limit. If enough people agree with you then they'll be out. It's the only thing they truly understand. Too many people moan about things like 20mph limits and then dutifully vote the same councillors that supported it back in.
In Wales there was supposedly a petition with over half a million "signatures" opposing the nationwide 20mph limit. I would feel confident of winning a bet that a good proportion of those people will still vote Labour next time though. Well you reap what you sow. If you don't like it then don't vote for them. If you vote for them then suck it up because you played a part in giving them the power to do it. You can't have it both ways.
People don't vote for councillors on a single issue. It may also be the case that all councillors support a policy that you don't agree with.In Wales there was supposedly a petition with over half a million "signatures" opposing the nationwide 20mph limit. I would feel confident of winning a bet that a good proportion of those people will still vote Labour next time though. Well you reap what you sow. If you don't like it then don't vote for them. If you vote for them then suck it up because you played a part in giving them the power to do it. You can't have it both ways.
As the people that voted in the current government, we have the right to challenge decisions made, it's not a given that because we voted for them that they are free to do what they want and we just have to suck it up, although, it does feel like the current Welsh government attitude towards being challenged on the 20mph policy is exactly that.
Just from a googly .. is this any use?
website said:
For general browsers
TROs can be accessed in one of two ways:
Browse by local authority – this enables you to search for all TROs in the library made by a specific local authority.
Step 1 – Click on a local authority name in the list on the left hand side of this screen. This will display a list of all TROs in the library from that authority.
Step 2- Click on the reference number in the left hand column of that list to view that TRO.
Browse by search form – this enables you to search for a TRO(s) across all local authorities using three specified search criteria. Please click “Search” in the left hand navigation bar to access the library’s Search Form. The guidance notes with the Search Form will assist you.
https://tro.transportappeals.scot/search/TROs can be accessed in one of two ways:
Browse by local authority – this enables you to search for all TROs in the library made by a specific local authority.
Step 1 – Click on a local authority name in the list on the left hand side of this screen. This will display a list of all TROs in the library from that authority.
Step 2- Click on the reference number in the left hand column of that list to view that TRO.
Browse by search form – this enables you to search for a TRO(s) across all local authorities using three specified search criteria. Please click “Search” in the left hand navigation bar to access the library’s Search Form. The guidance notes with the Search Form will assist you.
bigandclever said:
Just from a googly .. is this any use?
Thanks for this, unfortunately it doesn't list my local authority (Scottish Borders Council) does that mean they've never applied for a TRO in Scotland?website said:
For general browsers
TROs can be accessed in one of two ways:
Browse by local authority – this enables you to search for all TROs in the library made by a specific local authority.
Step 1 – Click on a local authority name in the list on the left hand side of this screen. This will display a list of all TROs in the library from that authority.
Step 2- Click on the reference number in the left hand column of that list to view that TRO.
Browse by search form – this enables you to search for a TRO(s) across all local authorities using three specified search criteria. Please click “Search” in the left hand navigation bar to access the library’s Search Form. The guidance notes with the Search Form will assist you.
https://tro.transportappeals.scot/search/TROs can be accessed in one of two ways:
Browse by local authority – this enables you to search for all TROs in the library made by a specific local authority.
Step 1 – Click on a local authority name in the list on the left hand side of this screen. This will display a list of all TROs in the library from that authority.
Step 2- Click on the reference number in the left hand column of that list to view that TRO.
Browse by search form – this enables you to search for a TRO(s) across all local authorities using three specified search criteria. Please click “Search” in the left hand navigation bar to access the library’s Search Form. The guidance notes with the Search Form will assist you.
sospan said:
How was the initial trial set up? What wording was used, clauses included, TRO terms re duration?
Was it set up with an option to extend/make permanent included?
As far as I can tell, it was set up with a number of temporary TROs with defined end dates and options to extend.Was it set up with an option to extend/make permanent included?
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