Letter before action - template/advice
Discussion
Fairly soon I anticipate sending a letter before action to the firm responsible for damage to Mrs BrettMRCs 911 engine.
Has anyone on here got some good sources/recommendations for a template?
The incumbent insurer of the car are happy to assist on a legal basis, and have already given some advice, but they can only act after the Letter Before Action route has been tried.
I'd like to have a good basis for a letter put together so I can then fill in the blanks from my records.
A little background as to how we got here:
The car is a treasured family piece, well looked after and quite rare. The firm (A) in question performed an oil change using the wrong oil, within 300 miles big end damage became apparent. An oil sample analysis from a reputable firm confirmed the wrong oil was used and excessive bearing material was present in the sample.
On asking them what they wanted to do I was told that they would not be able to undertake the work themselves, so therefore I instructed another firm (B) to act.
Once the engine was removed and readied for strip down and inspection, I contacted firm A again and asked how they wanted to proceed. At this point I found out that the original workshop manager had now left, and had not provided a handover or details of this situation to the rest of the business. (I have since found out that several vehicles in their care around that time have encountered major issues, essentially due to a loss of skilled resources within the business)
The new manager was keen to ensure the problem was resolved, but had to escalate the situation to the board for funding approval.
Many weeks ticked by without an answer as to what they wanted to do, in the end with no movement from them I instructed firm B to strip and inspect the engine, preparing a report for firm A as part of this.
Once this was done the report, and initial invoice for the strip and inspection were passed on to firm A.
Firm A responded by stating they were not responsible for any costs as they had not carried out the work...
After several emails back and forth, (including some fabricated claims about the condition of the vehicle, a claim that using an oil below the rated requirements couldn't damage an engine..and some other little gems I'm delighted to have received in writing!) they offered to grind the crank if I would bring it to them.
At this point I stopped asking for the money on the guidance of legal counsel, leaving it instead until I have paid the final bill, and have a total amount to present to firm A.
We are now approaching that point, (firm B have had this as a winter project to minimise costs - I have no intention of inflating the loss etc) and I'm itching to write the letter!
Would like to hear advice, suggestions and experiences shared
(Obviously, this being PH I fully expect to be told this is entirely my own fault!
)
Corrected mileage
Has anyone on here got some good sources/recommendations for a template?
The incumbent insurer of the car are happy to assist on a legal basis, and have already given some advice, but they can only act after the Letter Before Action route has been tried.
I'd like to have a good basis for a letter put together so I can then fill in the blanks from my records.
A little background as to how we got here:
The car is a treasured family piece, well looked after and quite rare. The firm (A) in question performed an oil change using the wrong oil, within 300 miles big end damage became apparent. An oil sample analysis from a reputable firm confirmed the wrong oil was used and excessive bearing material was present in the sample.
On asking them what they wanted to do I was told that they would not be able to undertake the work themselves, so therefore I instructed another firm (B) to act.
Once the engine was removed and readied for strip down and inspection, I contacted firm A again and asked how they wanted to proceed. At this point I found out that the original workshop manager had now left, and had not provided a handover or details of this situation to the rest of the business. (I have since found out that several vehicles in their care around that time have encountered major issues, essentially due to a loss of skilled resources within the business)
The new manager was keen to ensure the problem was resolved, but had to escalate the situation to the board for funding approval.
Many weeks ticked by without an answer as to what they wanted to do, in the end with no movement from them I instructed firm B to strip and inspect the engine, preparing a report for firm A as part of this.
Once this was done the report, and initial invoice for the strip and inspection were passed on to firm A.
Firm A responded by stating they were not responsible for any costs as they had not carried out the work...
After several emails back and forth, (including some fabricated claims about the condition of the vehicle, a claim that using an oil below the rated requirements couldn't damage an engine..and some other little gems I'm delighted to have received in writing!) they offered to grind the crank if I would bring it to them.
At this point I stopped asking for the money on the guidance of legal counsel, leaving it instead until I have paid the final bill, and have a total amount to present to firm A.
We are now approaching that point, (firm B have had this as a winter project to minimise costs - I have no intention of inflating the loss etc) and I'm itching to write the letter!
Would like to hear advice, suggestions and experiences shared
(Obviously, this being PH I fully expect to be told this is entirely my own fault!
)Edited by BrettMRC on Wednesday 3rd January 17:34
Corrected mileage
Edited by BrettMRC on Friday 5th January 11:06
How about the basic one from CAB? Doesn't have to be packed with legalese to meet the purpose.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/l...
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/l...
vaud said:
How about the basic one from CAB? Doesn't have to be packed with legalese to meet the purpose.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/l...
Thanks for that - a good starting point, perhaps I've been overthinking it a little!https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/l...
This isn't addressing your specific question but I think you'll struggle on a "wrong oil" claim unless the garage did something really, really stupid.
Leaving that aside, your letter before action needs to spell out,
who did the oil testing
what oil the testing showed was in there
what oil should have been in there instead
that the incorrect specification led inevitably to engine damage
what that engine damage was, and
the cost of fixing the engine.
I anticipate the garage will be run a vigorous defence along the lines, "all modern synthetic multigrades are so good and cover such a broad specification that the problem here was a worn old engine. The owner can't expect an oil change to mend a worn engine".
Leaving that aside, your letter before action needs to spell out,
who did the oil testing
what oil the testing showed was in there
what oil should have been in there instead
that the incorrect specification led inevitably to engine damage
what that engine damage was, and
the cost of fixing the engine.
I anticipate the garage will be run a vigorous defence along the lines, "all modern synthetic multigrades are so good and cover such a broad specification that the problem here was a worn old engine. The owner can't expect an oil change to mend a worn engine".
BrettMRC said:
Thanks for that - a good starting point, perhaps I've been overthinking it a little!
As I understand it (IANAL) at mediation or court a judge won't be judging legal terms in a letter before action at this level - just that one has been issued and that it is clear on the timing communications and requested resolution with a reasonable timeframe for response. Panamax said:
This isn't addressing your specific question but I think you'll struggle on a "wrong oil" claim unless the garage did something really, really stupid.
Leaving that aside, your letter before action needs to spell out,
who did the oil testing
what oil the testing showed was in there
what oil should have been in there instead
that the incorrect specification led inevitably to engine damage
what that engine damage was, and
the cost of fixing the engine.
I anticipate the garage will be run a vigorous defence along the lines, "all modern synthetic multigrades are so good and cover such a broad specification that the problem here was a worn old engine. The owner can't expect an oil change to mend a worn engine".
The above would be required additions to ChatGPT's efforts below. ( II have no idea if it is of any use but thought I would thrown it at AILeaving that aside, your letter before action needs to spell out,
who did the oil testing
what oil the testing showed was in there
what oil should have been in there instead
that the incorrect specification led inevitably to engine damage
what that engine damage was, and
the cost of fixing the engine.
I anticipate the garage will be run a vigorous defence along the lines, "all modern synthetic multigrades are so good and cover such a broad specification that the problem here was a worn old engine. The owner can't expect an oil change to mend a worn engine".
[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, Postcode]
[Email Address]
[Phone Number]
[Date]
[Recipient's Name]
[Recipient's Position]
[Company Name]
[Company Address]
[City, Postcode]
Dear [Recipient's Name or Sir/Madam],
Re: Letter Before Action - Claim for Damages to Porsche 911 Engine (Registration Number: [Car Registration Number])
I am writing to you regarding the damages sustained to my cherished Porsche 911 engine, which resulted from the incorrect oil change performed by [Firm A], a service your establishment provided. Despite repeated attempts to address the issue and seek amicable resolution, I regret to inform you that my efforts have been met with unsatisfactory responses from your company.
The details of the sequence of events leading to the damages are as follows:
On [Date], [Firm A] conducted an oil change using incorrect oil on my Porsche 911.
Within a mere 200 miles, significant big end damage became evident, which was confirmed by an oil sample analysis from a reputable firm. The analysis indicated the use of the wrong oil and excessive bearing material present in the sample, directly attributed to the service provided by [Firm A].
Upon contacting [Firm A] to address the issue, I was informed that they were unable to rectify the damage. Subsequently, I engaged [Firm B] to undertake the necessary work after being left with no feasible options from [Firm A].
Despite efforts to communicate and resolve the matter with [Firm A], delays occurred due to a lack of coordination within your company, including the departure of the original workshop manager without providing necessary details or handover, leading to a prolonged delay in addressing the issue.
Numerous attempts to seek resolution, including providing a detailed report and invoice from [Firm B] for their services, have been met with rejection from [Firm A], denying any responsibility for the costs associated with rectifying the damages caused by their erroneous service.
As a result of the above, I am now left with no choice but to proceed with legal action to seek appropriate compensation for the damages caused to my vehicle. The costs incurred for rectification, including the initial inspection, strip-down, and subsequent repair work undertaken by [Firm B], amount to £[Total Amount]. Enclosed, please find an itemized breakdown of the costs for your reference.
I am open to a reasonable and fair resolution outside of court proceedings. However, should I not receive a satisfactory response or proposed resolution within 14 days from the date of this letter, I will have no option but to commence legal action in the Small Claims Court to recover the aforementioned damages and associated costs.
I strongly urge [Firm A] to reconsider its position and take responsibility for the damages caused due to the incorrect service provided. I trust that you will promptly address this matter and take appropriate steps to resolve it without the need for further legal action.
Please direct all correspondence relating to this matter to the address provided above.
Yours sincerely,
[Your Name]
Enclosures:
Detailed breakdown of costs incurred
Copies of relevant correspondence and invoices
Please note, it's essential to ensure that the letter accurately represents your situation and that you've included all necessary documentation to support your claim. Consulting with a legal professional or solicitor can also provide further guidance tailored to your specific circumstances and help strengthen your case before proceeding with legal action.
I can't advise on the question,
I am genuinely interested in what oil would cause so much damage in such a short time. Possibly some modern thin stuff? I assume they didn't use something silly - auto fluid or something.
At the risk of derailing your question with a bun fight on oil grades, would OP post what the oil was that caused such damage and what it should have been?
Thanks
I am genuinely interested in what oil would cause so much damage in such a short time. Possibly some modern thin stuff? I assume they didn't use something silly - auto fluid or something.
At the risk of derailing your question with a bun fight on oil grades, would OP post what the oil was that caused such damage and what it should have been?
Thanks
IMO just saying "the wrong oil" is not sufficient.
The oil used was this oil
The oil used should have been that oil
The difference between them is.....
That difference meant the engine was not adequately lubricated
The engine failed because of inadequate lubrication
The cost of the failure is £££
The oil used was this oil
The oil used should have been that oil
The difference between them is.....
That difference meant the engine was not adequately lubricated
The engine failed because of inadequate lubrication
The cost of the failure is £££
Pretty sure a court would want to see an expert opinion confirming that the failure was caused by the incorrect oil, and that the failure seen would not normally occur on engines until they are X,000 miles older. The defendant could just otherwise send a 'senior mechanic' who would say that the failure happens quite often with that type of engine at that age/mileage, and that while the oil was not to spec it's perfectly adequate in reality (etc etc).
How old is the 911?
What oil should have been used?
What oil did the garage incorrectly use?
What total mileage was on the engine?
Is the engine original?
If the engine has been rebuilt, who rebuilt it, exactly what was done and when?
What is the service history on the engine and has it been serviced with a consistent oil in line with manufacturers guidlines? Do you have a papertrail with service stamps/invoices to prove all servicing?
Has the engine has any performance modifications completed?
Has the engine been subject to any track days?
Just a few questions that spring to my mind that any defense may possibly ask. It is a bit of a minefield for you and it must have been a significantly incorrect grade of oil to cause terminal engine damage after only a few hundred miles.
What oil should have been used?
What oil did the garage incorrectly use?
What total mileage was on the engine?
Is the engine original?
If the engine has been rebuilt, who rebuilt it, exactly what was done and when?
What is the service history on the engine and has it been serviced with a consistent oil in line with manufacturers guidlines? Do you have a papertrail with service stamps/invoices to prove all servicing?
Has the engine has any performance modifications completed?
Has the engine been subject to any track days?
Just a few questions that spring to my mind that any defense may possibly ask. It is a bit of a minefield for you and it must have been a significantly incorrect grade of oil to cause terminal engine damage after only a few hundred miles.
Edited by M3333 on Wednesday 3rd January 21:19
I know little about the techy bits but I'd expect the defendents would insist on very detailed analysis by recognised experts - to then be balanced by very detailed knock-backs from opposing experts.
It has all the signs of a very expensive exercise. How much money could be involved ?. Is it worth it ?
It has all the signs of a very expensive exercise. How much money could be involved ?. Is it worth it ?
M3333 said:
.....
Just a few questions that spring to my mind that any defence may possibly ask. It is a bit of a minefield for you and it must have been a significantly incorrect grade of oil to cause terminal engine damage after only a few hundred miles.
Indeed.Just a few questions that spring to my mind that any defence may possibly ask. It is a bit of a minefield for you and it must have been a significantly incorrect grade of oil to cause terminal engine damage after only a few hundred miles.
Edited by M3333 on Wednesday 3rd January 19:30
For the big ends to fall out in a few hundred miles suggests something more than using Woolworth's bargain oil instead of Mobil One.
It tends to suggest 'it's a bit noisy let's get it serviced.....'
Short of race tracks or some chemical incompatibility like Castrol R meets Mineral Oil, a few hundred miles of cheap oil seems unlikey to destroy something unless it was already on its last legs.
Vasco said:
I know little about the techy bits but I'd expect the defendents would insist on very detailed analysis by recognised experts - to then be balanced by very detailed knock-backs from opposing experts.
But that isn't the model of small claims? I thought it was much more familiar, much less expert opinion? I stand to be corrected, IANAL.Thanks chaps - useful insights.
I can understand from a defense perspective that there are some good arguments.
The car is a 70's 911; it should have been running 20W-50 instead a 10W-40 was used.
The issue happened on the first hot day the car was driven, showing low oil pressure. When restarted there was a distinct bottom end rumble, so it was switched off and moved on a trailer after that.
I have a the oil analysis report from a well known and respect firm, along with an engineers report/inspection, again from a respected professional.
Currently feel like I have better than 50% odds here.
Costs are well into 5 figures, not something I will let drop when caused by a 3rd parties incompetence...
I can understand from a defense perspective that there are some good arguments.
The car is a 70's 911; it should have been running 20W-50 instead a 10W-40 was used.
The issue happened on the first hot day the car was driven, showing low oil pressure. When restarted there was a distinct bottom end rumble, so it was switched off and moved on a trailer after that.
I have a the oil analysis report from a well known and respect firm, along with an engineers report/inspection, again from a respected professional.
Currently feel like I have better than 50% odds here.
Costs are well into 5 figures, not something I will let drop when caused by a 3rd parties incompetence...
BrettMRC said:
The car is a 70's 911; it should have been running 20W-50 instead a 10W-40 was used.
You'll struggle. 20w-50 is old treacle (mineral oil) compared with a modern 10w-40. I don't know the brand in question but there's a modern (at least 30 years and a big brand) oil available in 0w-40 or 5w-30 that's an incredibly good lubricant. Those specifications overlap almost to cover every possible eventuality in the UK climate. It's not as if we're -50 in the winter or +50 in the summer.I'm not saying you're wrong; just that there's no point throwing good money after bad. Presumably an old 911 with a recent, proffesional and credible rebuild remains a valuable asset.
200 miles with 10/40 rather than 20/50 is not going to knacker main bearings unless it was already on borrowed time viz knackered oil pump, knackered bearings, being driven like it was stolen or some other unfortunate random infarction. Good luck, because you'll need it to have a chance of winning this one.
Panamax said:
BrettMRC said:
The car is a 70's 911; it should have been running 20W-50 instead a 10W-40 was used.
You'll struggle. 20w-50 is old treacle (mineral oil) compared with a modern 10w-40. I don't know the brand in question but there's a modern (at least 30 years and a big brand) oil available in 0w-40 or 5w-30 that's an incredibly good lubricant. Those specifications overlap almost to cover every possible eventuality in the UK climate. It's not as if we're -50 in the winter or +50 in the summer.I'm not saying you're wrong; just that there's no point throwing good money after bad. Presumably an old 911 with a recent, proffesional and credible rebuild remains a valuable asset.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff