Failed PCN appeal

[MrJuice]

My wife inputted our registration plate incorrectly into a voice system for tower Hamlets parking. The system picked up "F" as "S" and she must have confirmed it as correct

We paid about £24 for parking and returned to see a PCN

I appealed. They declined and said I have to pay

If I make representations, am I guaranteed to win or is it murky? Ive googled and found people in a similar position after initial appeal. Others have been let off. But cannot find anyone who made representations

Any advice?

[Colonel Cupcake]

I don't know if it relevant to your situation but the British Parking Association says 'minor' keying errors are allowed in appeals.

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/aos-code-changes-...

[MrJuice]

I suspect that probably applies to private parking companies

You'd think councils would be more gentle

[bearman68]

I'd refuse to pay and have my day in court.

For me, they have to provide evidence of some loss or wrong doing, not merely an admin error. And if you have paid the fees as you describe, then they have neither.

I am not a lawyer, merely a stroppy anti authoritarian engineer with bitter streak in me about this kind of thing, so please bear in mind my background when asking opinion.

[VSKeith]

bearman68 said:

I'd refuse to pay and have my day in court.

For me, they have to provide evidence of some loss or wrong doing, not merely an admin error. And if you have paid the fees as you describe, then they have neither.

I am not a lawyer, merely a stroppy anti authoritarian engineer with bitter streak in me about this kind of thing, so please bear in mind my background when asking opinion.

^^^^This

You have evidence you paid. They decided to use a voice based system that is clearly prone to misunderstanding where letters can sound the same over the phone. Let them take you court and watch the judge find in your favour, making sure the local rag finds out afterwards.

I wonder if they think you own the vehicle with the one letter different reg and parked that there at the same time, getting a 50% discount

[Simpo Two]

VSKeith said:

You have evidence you paid. They decided to use a voice based system that is clearly prone to misunderstanding where letters can sound the same over the phone. Let them take you court and watch the judge find in your favour, making sure the local rag finds out afterwards.

I would agree. They have been paid £24, exactly the same as if you'd put the right reg in.

The error was a human error made by a human.

Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 1st March 21:37

[anonymous-user]

Simpo Two said:

VSKeith said:

You have evidence you paid. They decided to use a voice based system that is clearly prone to misunderstanding where letters can sound the same over the phone. Let them take you court and watch the judge find in your favour, making sure the local rag finds out afterwards.

I would agree. They have been paid £24, exactly the same as if you'd put the right reg in.

The error was a human error made by a human.

Edited by Simpo Two on Friday 1st March 21:37

But, sadly it was incorrect. The reg entered was different to the one parked in the bay.

Taking fairness and leniency out of it - the rules are such and the parking didn't comply.

Pay the fine, chalk it down to a painful experience and crack on imho

[mcdjl]

lord trumpton said:

But, sadly it was incorrect. The reg entered was different to the one parked in the bay.

Taking fairness and leniency out of it - the rules are such and the parking didn't comply.

Pay the fine, chalk it down to a painful experience and crack on imho

I'd do that, but subtract the£24 already paid and send it by cheque(yes I do still have a cheque book.... Somewhere).

[TheDrownedApe]

lord trumpton said:

But, sadly it was incorrect. The reg entered was different to the one parked in the bay.

Taking fairness and leniency out of it - the rules are such and the parking didn't comply.

Pay the fine, chalk it down to a painful experience and crack on imho

And this is what they hope for

[VSKeith]

lord trumpton said:

But, sadly it was incorrect. The reg entered was different to the one parked in the bay.

Taking fairness and leniency out of it - the rules are such and the parking didn't comply.

Pay the fine, chalk it down to a painful experience and crack on imho

I'd say that the reg given was correct, but it was recorded incorrectly by a system not fit for purpose

[VSKeith]

OP - apologies if you already know this, but there's a phone number on the London Tribunals website.

Which? says that some appeals are heard by phone and decided there and then.

Maybe worth giving them a call? Although I'm sure they wouldn't give advice on whether to appeal and potentially lose early payment discount, you may be able to wheedle out of them the fact that one letter difference over a voice system should be cancelled.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk

020 7520 7200

[Terminator X]

I used a parking App for the wrong car. Got a ticket of course. Explained that I had paid to park and sent them a screenshot. Ticket cancelled.

TX.

[jensenhealey2]

Schedule 7 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 regulates the circumstances where a PCN can be issued for parking. I guess your PCN will specify no charge paid per (b) below. The question is whether the mistake in logging the number means the charge was not paid in respect of your vehicle.

You need to put in a strong representation. Not just I paid it was a mistake. You have to show you paid with the receipt of the payment via a bank statement, copy of the registration document showing what vehicle you own, pointing out that you would only have made a payment in respect of your vehicle and that the misidentification is an obvious and trivial mistake arising from the automated system not understanding your wife's voice. Noisy street, windy day whatever applies, yada, yada, yada. Lay it on as thick as you dare - Scottish accent, whatever you can chuck in.

I have always found that the fact I have gone to the effort to dig out the law (ex-lawyer, so easy for me to do, except that it is spread over innumerable Acts and Statutory Instruments, carries weight. They want easy wins not someone who may know what they are talking about. You might still have to go to tribunal but I would expect you to win at tribunal (though nothing court related is guaranteed - I have seen guaranteed cases lose because a judge had on off day misunderstood something the lot).

Schedule 7 applicable part reads:

2(1)In Greater London there is a parking contravention in relation to a vehicle if the vehicle is stationary in a parking place and—
(a)the vehicle has been left—

(i)otherwise than as authorised by or under any order relating to the parking place, or

(ii)beyond the period of parking that has been paid for,

(b)no parking charge payable with respect to the vehicle has been paid, or

(c)there has been, with respect to the vehicle, a contravention of any provision made by or under any order relating to the parking place.

(2)In sub-paragraph (1) “parking place” means—

(a)a parking place designated by an order made under section 6, 9 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27), or

[bad company]

VSKeith said:

OP - apologies if you already know this, but there's a phone number on the London Tribunals website.

Which? says that some appeals are heard by phone and decided there and then.

Maybe worth giving them a call? Although I'm sure they wouldn't give advice on whether to appeal and potentially lose early payment discount, you may be able to wheedle out of them the fact that one letter difference over a voice system should be cancelled.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk

020 7520 7200

I’ve been to the London Tribunal and won my appeal against Newham Council albeit not for parking. It’s a fairly painless process and I’d certainly be doing that again if I were in the op’s position.

Seriously, DO NOT PAY. You have a very good case.

[MrJuice]

Other alight caveat is that the car is leased. So any correspondence to registered keeper is going to cost me £18 per time in admin fees from the leasing company. They emailed me the above

[QuickQuack]

If they're going to make you pay the fine, I'd call your credit card company and request a charge back for the £24 you've paid as you're not receiving the service you've paid for. Surely they can't expect you to pay both the £24 parking fee and the fine for not paying it.

[QuickQuack]

Another thought, with these voice recognition systems for registration numbers being relatively unreliable, are they not open to a claim of discrimination if that's the only way to pay and the caller has a lisp making it impossible for the system to correctly identify the letters being pronounced?

[MrJuice]

Yep

I might just say that the "S" that was the system dead back to me to confirm my entry sounded like an "F". Very subjective

Should win

I'm going to appeal

Will do this Monday

[Sir Bagalot]

Private parking cowboys have instructions from above that minor mistakes must be met with a £20 admin charge.

I would certainly appeal and go all the way to court on that one.

[iDrive]

In all seriousness, I suspect that the decision to not allow the Appeal is likely to be a breach of the Disability Discrimination Act - You do not have to declare dyslexia or dyspraxia, nor do they have to be formally diagnosed, and the decision does not appear to have taken that reasonable adjustment into account.

I would be inclined to ask which Elected Member leads on Disability Issues and make them aware of this approach within their Car Parking team.