Car stolen - claim rejected - advice please!
Discussion
Hi all,
Just wanted to get some advice before writing back to insurers.
Dad who is 75 had his car stolen off the drive. Broad summary:
Last had main car keys when he came home at about 1pm.
Needed to use the car again at circa 4pm - couldn't find the main car keys.
Used the spare set.
Last saw the main car keys when he came back home circa 1pm.
Car stolen that same evening.
Missing main car key set also had house key on it.
Nobody came inside the house/no forced entry (the door is double locked from the inside so even with the keys you can't get in. No cctv).
After 4 months insurers have rejected the claim. Dad has purchased another car in the meantime.
In their letter to him, to which we need to reply, the policy terms they refer to are:
1. The insured must "protect your vehicle from loss or damage".
2. The insured must "remove and secure any keys or device that allows access to your vehicle; if it is left unoccupied".
3. "If an incident happens which is directly or indirectly caused or contributed to by any of the following: a... b... c. your vehicle being left unlocked or unsecured. No cover under the policy will be given..."
"As you cannot locate the main key and made no effort to safeguard the car after discovering it was missing, you have breached your policy, and we are unable to provide cover for this incident."
Dad had been handling this himself, but once he got the rejection letter is now asking for some help.
I'm trying to be fair, but I can't see how dad has been reckless which I think is the test. He couldn't find his keys, so used the spare thinking in all likelihood they'd turn up under the sofa or something in fairly short order. I would understand if he couldn't find it all the next day, but we're talking same day here.
I did have a quick word with insurers about what they would have wanted him to do, and they said generically speaking that he should have phoned them and they could have said something like to disconnect the car battery (he wouldn't know how) and/or to park the vehicle away from the home.
What makes things even more complicated is that the police have found the stolen car a couple of days ago and have asked us what we want to do with it. Insurers have said it's our problem for now. This is a huge issue, as we'd then have to keep it insured and change out all the locks/barrels/ignition whilst the dispute with insurers is going on, plus deal with the costs of all that.
Can anyone help navigate this?
Thanks!
Raj
Just wanted to get some advice before writing back to insurers.
Dad who is 75 had his car stolen off the drive. Broad summary:
Last had main car keys when he came home at about 1pm.
Needed to use the car again at circa 4pm - couldn't find the main car keys.
Used the spare set.
Last saw the main car keys when he came back home circa 1pm.
Car stolen that same evening.
Missing main car key set also had house key on it.
Nobody came inside the house/no forced entry (the door is double locked from the inside so even with the keys you can't get in. No cctv).
After 4 months insurers have rejected the claim. Dad has purchased another car in the meantime.
In their letter to him, to which we need to reply, the policy terms they refer to are:
1. The insured must "protect your vehicle from loss or damage".
2. The insured must "remove and secure any keys or device that allows access to your vehicle; if it is left unoccupied".
3. "If an incident happens which is directly or indirectly caused or contributed to by any of the following: a... b... c. your vehicle being left unlocked or unsecured. No cover under the policy will be given..."
"As you cannot locate the main key and made no effort to safeguard the car after discovering it was missing, you have breached your policy, and we are unable to provide cover for this incident."
Dad had been handling this himself, but once he got the rejection letter is now asking for some help.
I'm trying to be fair, but I can't see how dad has been reckless which I think is the test. He couldn't find his keys, so used the spare thinking in all likelihood they'd turn up under the sofa or something in fairly short order. I would understand if he couldn't find it all the next day, but we're talking same day here.
I did have a quick word with insurers about what they would have wanted him to do, and they said generically speaking that he should have phoned them and they could have said something like to disconnect the car battery (he wouldn't know how) and/or to park the vehicle away from the home.
What makes things even more complicated is that the police have found the stolen car a couple of days ago and have asked us what we want to do with it. Insurers have said it's our problem for now. This is a huge issue, as we'd then have to keep it insured and change out all the locks/barrels/ignition whilst the dispute with insurers is going on, plus deal with the costs of all that.
Can anyone help navigate this?
Thanks!
Raj
Is the recovered car damaged or could it be sold to cover his losses? That would be the simplest way of sorting it out.
Otherwise he will have to store the car and pursue it with the insurers. Was anyone arrested for the theft? Could always try civil claim against them but that's not gonna be fruitful imo.
Otherwise he will have to store the car and pursue it with the insurers. Was anyone arrested for the theft? Could always try civil claim against them but that's not gonna be fruitful imo.
To be fair, I can see things from the insurers point of view. The car got stolen when your dad mislaid the main set of keys. They would presume that a thief had either found them or took them from him and stole the vehicle.
Regards the recovered vehicle, you really should take it back. The insurers aren’t paying out so they don’t have an interest in it. You need to get the car back and sell it. Let’s hope there isn’t a stolen/recovered marker on it.
Regards the recovered vehicle, you really should take it back. The insurers aren’t paying out so they don’t have an interest in it. You need to get the car back and sell it. Let’s hope there isn’t a stolen/recovered marker on it.
We are currently not aware of the condition of the recovered vehicle. Irrespective, it will need a new set of keys plus the cost of changing out all the cylinders etc.
Separately, I seem to recall that once a car is stolen, the re-sale value of it decreases markedly so in addition to the above costs, he would also have to swallow that loss.
Do you have any thoughts as to the validity (or not) of the rejection of his claim by the insurers?
Separately, I seem to recall that once a car is stolen, the re-sale value of it decreases markedly so in addition to the above costs, he would also have to swallow that loss.
Do you have any thoughts as to the validity (or not) of the rejection of his claim by the insurers?
Raj28 said:
I'm trying to be fair, but I can't see how dad has been reckless which I think is the test.
I'm not sure that is the test. The test is did he comply with policy terms and conditions of the policy for making a theft claim. It appears the answer is no. Were the terms and conditions unreasonable? No, I don't think they are. If I got home at 1pm, having used my car keys, and then couldn't locate them at 4pm when I needed to use the car again, I wouldn't assume they'd just turn up and grab the spare ones. I'd search everywhere I'd been in those 3 hours, and if I couldn't find them, I'd assume I'd dropped them outside and someone else now had them. And act accordingly. At the very least I'd arrange to leave the car somewhere else, so if the person with the keys came back to steal the car, it wouldn't be there. ,
If the car had been stolen and recovered BEFORE your dad had bought another car, he’d still be paying for new locks etc and taking the resale value hit. That’s not a consideration.
However. I think that with some cars, only two keys can be ‘authorised’ so you’d just get another key from the dealer, have that and the other key authorised, and then the stolen key is useless.
However. I think that with some cars, only two keys can be ‘authorised’ so you’d just get another key from the dealer, have that and the other key authorised, and then the stolen key is useless.
Raj28 said:
"As you cannot locate the main key and made no effort to safeguard the car after discovering it was missing, you have breached your policy, and we are unable to provide cover for this incident."
It is perfectly possible to lose your keys after you've locked the car. Just because you can't find the keys doesn't mean the car is unlocked, it could equally well be locked and the keys are in your other trousers in the bedroom. And besides, you say he locked the car with the spare key.Raj28 said:
We are currently not aware of the condition of the recovered vehicle. Irrespective, it will need a new set of keys plus the cost of changing out all the cylinders etc.
Separately, I seem to recall that once a car is stolen, the re-sale value of it decreases markedly so in addition to the above costs, he would also have to swallow that loss.
Yes, a 'stolen/recovered' car is Cat X (first hit on Google: https://www.reclamet.co.uk/damaged-car-categories ) It will be on the record unfortunately, and will flag up if you advertise it with, say, Autotrader. But do you need to change all the locks if you're selling it? I bought a stolen/recovered car once, and there was no sign or note that the locks had been changed.Separately, I seem to recall that once a car is stolen, the re-sale value of it decreases markedly so in addition to the above costs, he would also have to swallow that loss.
Simpo Two said:
Raj28 said:
"As you cannot locate the main key and made no effort to safeguard the car after discovering it was missing, you have breached your policy, and we are unable to provide cover for this incident."
It is perfectly possible to lose your keys after you've locked the car. Just because you can't find the keys doesn't mean the car is unlocked, it could equally well be locked and the keys are in your other trousers in the bedroom. And besides, you say he locked the car with the spare key.They aren't saying he didn't lock the car, they are saying he didn't safeguard it. And they're right.
Thanks all. To respond:
Ref recovery - We are waiting for the police to get back to us. We have asked them about storage costs etc as we don't want that to build up. They may need to run forensics. Apparently as it was used in crime, the treatment is a bit different.
Ref re-sale - appreciate the heads up ref Cat X. That will represent a diminution in value. Will speak to Volkswagen about the key thing.
The stolen car was recovered AFTER dad had gotten a replacement.
The likelihood is someone used the main keys to unlock the car which was locked using the spare key to steal the vehicle. It is doubtful the door/ignition was forced.
Appreciate the different points of view ref liability - do keep in mind this is a retired 75 year old non petrolhead.
Ref recovery - We are waiting for the police to get back to us. We have asked them about storage costs etc as we don't want that to build up. They may need to run forensics. Apparently as it was used in crime, the treatment is a bit different.
Ref re-sale - appreciate the heads up ref Cat X. That will represent a diminution in value. Will speak to Volkswagen about the key thing.
The stolen car was recovered AFTER dad had gotten a replacement.
The likelihood is someone used the main keys to unlock the car which was locked using the spare key to steal the vehicle. It is doubtful the door/ignition was forced.
Appreciate the different points of view ref liability - do keep in mind this is a retired 75 year old non petrolhead.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
How does that matter. Let's say he locked the car, and dropped the keys on the ground. The thief picked them up. The thief then had the keys and knew where the car was located. He went out again with the spare key, and locked the car afterwards. So what. The thief had the keys and could return to steal it at their convenience. At the very least, he should not have brought the car home for the night. Maybe parked it just a few streets away.
They aren't saying he didn't lock the car, they are saying he didn't safeguard it. And they're right.
This seems to be the nub of the argument. I have to be honest, prior to seeing this letter I don't think I myself would have thought to park a few streets away in similar circumstances and would have waited till the next day to see if I could find my keys.They aren't saying he didn't lock the car, they are saying he didn't safeguard it. And they're right.
scorcher said:
Surely the vehicle will only be cat x if the insurers pay out on it. If the insurance isn’t involved then no marker will be forthcoming, as it’s still your vehicle.
That is also my understanding & as they appear to be unwilling to cover it, that is unlikely I would have thought.Given the age of your father, the insurer should be more sensitive as he could be considered a vulnerable customer due to his age. I am not saying he is vulnerable, just that the insurer should give it consideration.
My keys are basically interchangeable between my spare and main key.
If I were you I would raise a complaint to say that your father acted in good faith and did not, at the time, believe that the keys were anything other than misplaced within his own home. Therefore it would be onerous, especially given his age/health/capacity to have taken any other action at the time. I would ask them to reconsider their decision, and that if they do not satisfactorily deal with the complaint and the claim that you will refer the matter to FOS.
My keys are basically interchangeable between my spare and main key.
If I were you I would raise a complaint to say that your father acted in good faith and did not, at the time, believe that the keys were anything other than misplaced within his own home. Therefore it would be onerous, especially given his age/health/capacity to have taken any other action at the time. I would ask them to reconsider their decision, and that if they do not satisfactorily deal with the complaint and the claim that you will refer the matter to FOS.
porterpainter said:
Given the age of your father, the insurer should be more sensitive as he could be considered a vulnerable customer due to his age. I am not saying he is vulnerable, just that the insurer should give it consideration.
My keys are basically interchangeable between my spare and main key.
If I were you I would raise a complaint to say that your father acted in good faith and did not, at the time, believe that the keys were anything other than misplaced within his own home. Therefore it would be onerous, especially given his age/health/capacity to have taken any other action at the time. I would ask them to reconsider their decision, and that if they do not satisfactorily deal with the complaint and the claim that you will refer the matter to FOS.
At what point does "vulnerable" equate to "shouldn't be driving?"My keys are basically interchangeable between my spare and main key.
If I were you I would raise a complaint to say that your father acted in good faith and did not, at the time, believe that the keys were anything other than misplaced within his own home. Therefore it would be onerous, especially given his age/health/capacity to have taken any other action at the time. I would ask them to reconsider their decision, and that if they do not satisfactorily deal with the complaint and the claim that you will refer the matter to FOS.
why did your dad tell the insurance company about the missing keys?
I am assuming it was part of a conversation with the police, when he reported it missing?
it seems that it was circumstantial at best the the keys went missing and then the car got stolen.
surely the insurance company have to prove that the two things are related to reject the claim?
I am assuming it was part of a conversation with the police, when he reported it missing?
it seems that it was circumstantial at best the the keys went missing and then the car got stolen.
surely the insurance company have to prove that the two things are related to reject the claim?
Bloody hell! I misplace my car keys all the time.
Can't find them so take the bike (if I haven't misplaced those) or get the train.
Keys usually turn up in a jacket that I forgot I was wearing or sitting in plain sight on a shelf/table/chest.
Didn't realise that I was supposed to call the insurance company everytime that happened.
Feel for your dad, mate.
Can't find them so take the bike (if I haven't misplaced those) or get the train.
Keys usually turn up in a jacket that I forgot I was wearing or sitting in plain sight on a shelf/table/chest.
Didn't realise that I was supposed to call the insurance company everytime that happened.
Feel for your dad, mate.
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