Window replacement flat lease issue
Discussion
Hey Guys,
Wondering if someone here might be knowledgeable in regards to the following situation.
I fear I may have inadvertently shot myself in the foot ...
I live in a flat, with a management company overseeing the general maintenance. I own the flat (leasehold).
As is common, there is a 'shared fund' that all 12 residents pay into that covers maintenance items, gardening, cleaning etc ...
Due to increased costs for everyone, and the fact that the windows, although double glazed, are not of the best quality and at over 20 years old, being wooden frames, they could do with upgrading. I figured it would be sensible to replace a couple of them, and save a bit on heating - and just generally be more comfortable.
I wrote to the management company and asked for their permission to replace two windows. They wrote back saying they had spoken to the landlord and that was fine, just be sure that it is as close as possible like-for-like. My possible error here was assuming that if I replace my own windows, they would just skip me from any future window replacement that they organise.
Maybe worth mentioning that two other flats have also replaced the windows.
So, I get a company round, measured up, contact signed deposit paid - all good.
My neighbour (who has replaced his windows) then sends me the following email he has received from the management company.
(Not sure of the original content of his email, but he has clearly asked about windows for whatever reason).
Looking through the lease I was able to obtain that windows do make up part of the maintained property and we as the managing agent are responsible for the maintenance of the frames.
We currently do not have an accurate timeframe as to when windows in the building will be replaced, this is something that is being discussed internally with plans of the windows being replaced in 2027/2028.
The only thing to make you aware of however is that when the time comes for us to complete the window replacements of the other flats in the development, we unfortunately cannot exclude you from the tender/levy process and as per the lease we will have to charge you also to complete the work (despite your windows already having been changed by yourself).
This is due to the fact that the window replacements (if carried out) will be completed using the service charge funds that all residents pay into. The way the lease/accounts are set up mean that all 24 Flats in Richmond Avenue pay into one pot and we cannot separate your contributions from that of the other flats who make up the accounts.
It’s worth mentioning at this point that this is not a <management company> policy, this is what has been laid out in the lease by the developer when the flats were originally developed.
I accept I should have asked more questions, but on the flip side, if the MC knew this, they conveniently didn't tell me, or my neighbour.
I don't the have the lease with me at the moment (I'm away for a couple of days) but again from memory, there was nothing in the lease that specified that contributions cannot be separated out.
Any advice of this or am I screwed ?
Thx in advance,
mph999
Wondering if someone here might be knowledgeable in regards to the following situation.
I fear I may have inadvertently shot myself in the foot ...
I live in a flat, with a management company overseeing the general maintenance. I own the flat (leasehold).
As is common, there is a 'shared fund' that all 12 residents pay into that covers maintenance items, gardening, cleaning etc ...
Due to increased costs for everyone, and the fact that the windows, although double glazed, are not of the best quality and at over 20 years old, being wooden frames, they could do with upgrading. I figured it would be sensible to replace a couple of them, and save a bit on heating - and just generally be more comfortable.
I wrote to the management company and asked for their permission to replace two windows. They wrote back saying they had spoken to the landlord and that was fine, just be sure that it is as close as possible like-for-like. My possible error here was assuming that if I replace my own windows, they would just skip me from any future window replacement that they organise.
Maybe worth mentioning that two other flats have also replaced the windows.
So, I get a company round, measured up, contact signed deposit paid - all good.
My neighbour (who has replaced his windows) then sends me the following email he has received from the management company.
(Not sure of the original content of his email, but he has clearly asked about windows for whatever reason).
- * email from management company ***
Looking through the lease I was able to obtain that windows do make up part of the maintained property and we as the managing agent are responsible for the maintenance of the frames.
We currently do not have an accurate timeframe as to when windows in the building will be replaced, this is something that is being discussed internally with plans of the windows being replaced in 2027/2028.
The only thing to make you aware of however is that when the time comes for us to complete the window replacements of the other flats in the development, we unfortunately cannot exclude you from the tender/levy process and as per the lease we will have to charge you also to complete the work (despite your windows already having been changed by yourself).
This is due to the fact that the window replacements (if carried out) will be completed using the service charge funds that all residents pay into. The way the lease/accounts are set up mean that all 24 Flats in Richmond Avenue pay into one pot and we cannot separate your contributions from that of the other flats who make up the accounts.
It’s worth mentioning at this point that this is not a <management company> policy, this is what has been laid out in the lease by the developer when the flats were originally developed.
- * end of email ***
I accept I should have asked more questions, but on the flip side, if the MC knew this, they conveniently didn't tell me, or my neighbour.
I don't the have the lease with me at the moment (I'm away for a couple of days) but again from memory, there was nothing in the lease that specified that contributions cannot be separated out.
Any advice of this or am I screwed ?
Thx in advance,
mph999
How many flats? You say 12 at one point and also 24.
Either way at least 2/12 or 2/24 flats have replaced their windows so common sense would say the PMC skips you and your neighbour regardless. If the freeholder was happy to allow some divergence I'd suggest it would be difficult for them to enforce costs for a uniform window replacement.
However leaseholds are mental so probably worth searching tribunal outcomes to see which way they landed. I imagine this situation will have arisen previously.
Either way at least 2/12 or 2/24 flats have replaced their windows so common sense would say the PMC skips you and your neighbour regardless. If the freeholder was happy to allow some divergence I'd suggest it would be difficult for them to enforce costs for a uniform window replacement.
However leaseholds are mental so probably worth searching tribunal outcomes to see which way they landed. I imagine this situation will have arisen previously.
mph999 said:
Odd, the management company email says 24 flats, don’t spot that.
There is another block, which I suspect they have included, but is actually a different address - the flats I am in are two block s of 6, but managed as one and the same.
. There is another block, which I suspect they have included, but is actually a different address - the flats I am in are two block s of 6, but managed as one and the same.
Yep - good idea re tribunal, I’ll see what I can find.
skyebear said:
Your title deeds should confirm what fraction you are liable for too.
Knowing how PMCs operate we'll probably have humans on Mars before they do your block's windows.
To be fair, over the years they haven’t been too bad, and generally have kept the place nice without stupid charges. Knowing how PMCs operate we'll probably have humans on Mars before they do your block's windows.
I did enquire about the windows a few years ago - and was basically told ‘in extreme circumstances we may consider replacement’ - so yeah, like you say that’s not happening soon.
The MC company have changed name since them, I’m not sure if it was just a name change or if they were bought by the current firm.
Anyway, going off the previous response I was going to wait for a decision, given (as per my original post) we would pay for our own windows then I figured no harm in doing things now rather than later.
Given how it appears multiple residents have made enquires around the windows, I’m struggling to see why they might only be considering it for 2027-28 - it’s not that hard, took me about 5 minutes to decide.
I’ll check lease again to see if it specifically mentions the %, I didn’t notice it when I flicked through the other day but I’ll look closer when I’m home in a couple of days.
The position you find yourself in is very common, I have a flat in a block of 21, I replaced all my windows and even though I'm one of the 15 flats that own a free hold share I still have to pay 1/21st of all window maintenance as per my lease, same goes for the garage doors, my garage has a new door that requires no painting but when they paint the rest of the doors I will need to pay a 21st of the bill.
dibblecorse said:
The position you find yourself in is very common, I have a flat in a block of 21, I replaced all my windows and even though I'm one of the 15 flats that own a free hold share I still have to pay 1/21st of all window maintenance as per my lease, same goes for the garage doors, my garage has a new door that requires no painting but when they paint the rest of the doors I will need to pay a 21st of the bill.
Is the Leasehold Bill going through parliament going to address this unfairness?catfood12 said:
Why wouldn't the management company pay you your 1/12 share or whatever to cover the cost of windows you've installed, almost on their behalf?
Doubt they can now as they didn’t put it out for tender etc. looks like I have indeed shot myself in the foot, at leastt it was only two windows and not all 4 (was going to do the kitchen and bathroom later, they can wait now … ).
On the plus side, I got a tax rebate that covers the cost of the windows I’ve replaced, ok, yes I’ve still paid but the man maths tells me that was kinda free money …
I’ll look at the lease but I suspect it’s pretty standard and water tight.
The reality is jobs like this don’t cost a linear amount so you might say 1/12 of windows less but that’s not going to be 1/12 for the scaffolding, PM and other overheads to get the job done.
It’s not great they didn’t inform you but maybe the decision came after you’d requested to replace your windows independently.
It’s not great they didn’t inform you but maybe the decision came after you’d requested to replace your windows independently.
I am a Leaseholder and a director of the management company. One's Lease should set out both the leaseholder and the freeholder's responsibilities.
Some years ago I had to address a similar situation to the one to OP finds himself in. That situation involved the leaseholder replacing all of their flat windows, then when the installation went wrong, expecting the management company to act for the leaseholder against the installation company. That I refused, and also advised that any future addition issues with the windows, would not be the responsibility of the management company. When the windows were replaced for the rest of the block, the leaseholder was simply not included with the costs for the same.
Under Section 20 (link below) there is a consultation process with leaseholders that a management company has to follow for major works, worth the OP reading up on the consultation process.
As other posters have posted, in the OP's case I would expect the management company to take into account the monies the Op hasspent on his windows, however having a considerable distrust for private management companies, the OP should consider the worse, and keep all communications in writing with the management company.
The Leasehold Advisory Service link is also below, and well worth you OP making contact with them, good luck OP.
https://www.lease-advice.org
https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/what-is-the-secti...
Some years ago I had to address a similar situation to the one to OP finds himself in. That situation involved the leaseholder replacing all of their flat windows, then when the installation went wrong, expecting the management company to act for the leaseholder against the installation company. That I refused, and also advised that any future addition issues with the windows, would not be the responsibility of the management company. When the windows were replaced for the rest of the block, the leaseholder was simply not included with the costs for the same.
Under Section 20 (link below) there is a consultation process with leaseholders that a management company has to follow for major works, worth the OP reading up on the consultation process.
As other posters have posted, in the OP's case I would expect the management company to take into account the monies the Op hasspent on his windows, however having a considerable distrust for private management companies, the OP should consider the worse, and keep all communications in writing with the management company.
The Leasehold Advisory Service link is also below, and well worth you OP making contact with them, good luck OP.
https://www.lease-advice.org
https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/what-is-the-secti...
TonyF1 said:
The reality is jobs like this don’t cost a linear amount so you might say 1/12 of windows less but that’s not going to be 1/12 for the scaffolding, PM and other overheads to get the job done.
It’s not great they didn’t inform you but maybe the decision came after you’d requested to replace your windows independently.
The flats that had their windows changed so far were done without scaffolding - all work done from the inside, so I presume that will be the same for the rest of them. It’s not great they didn’t inform you but maybe the decision came after you’d requested to replace your windows independently.
The inquires about window replacement started before I got involved, I just didn’t know about it.
Wings said:
I am a Leaseholder and a director of the management company. One's Lease should set out both the leaseholder and the freeholder's responsibilities.
https://www.lease-advice.org
https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/what-is-the-secti...
Thanks Wings - those links look useful, I’ll get in contact and see what they say. https://www.lease-advice.org
https://www.lease-advice.org/faq/what-is-the-secti...
I do know a very good solicitor that deals with properties - depending on what I find via these other avenues, it might be worth paying to get a straight answer - just aware that it may not be worth throwing good money after bad, but then when your taking a few thousands, a couple of hundred isn’t going to make a difference.
They will have to undergo an S20 consultation process to replace the windows, indeed for any expected expediture above £250 per property. At that stage you will have a right to comment on quotes and distribution of costs. That process will normally result in a separate payment outside of accrued management company funds for day to day repairs.
As has been suggested the devil is in the detail here, who owns the windows according to the lease? In our case the windows were owned by the leaseholder, but the landlord was responsible for decorating them every 7 years which they'd not done....
If the lease says leaseholder owned then you shouldnt be asked to contribute, if they say freeholder owned then at the right point in the consultation process id be asking them to fit new windows to your property if they are being fitted throughout, unless they'd be willing to offer an equivalent rebate to the properties who already funded window replacement.
bennno said:
They will have to undergo an S20 consultation process to replace the windows, indeed for any expected expediture above £250 per property. At that stage you will have a right to comment on quotes and distribution of costs. That process will normally result in a separate payment outside of accrued management company funds for day to day repairs.
As has been suggested the devil is in the detail here, who owns the windows according to the lease? In our case the windows were owned by the leaseholder, but the landlord was responsible for decorating them every 7 years which they'd not done....
If the lease says leaseholder owned then you shouldnt be asked to contribute, if they say freeholder owned then at the right point in the consultation process id be asking them to fit new windows to your property if they are being fitted throughout, unless they'd be willing to offer an equivalent rebate to the properties who already funded window replacement.
According to the lease, the 'Demised Premises' includes the floors, internal wall coverings etc ... "the door and door frames and the glass fitted in the door frames and window frames".As has been suggested the devil is in the detail here, who owns the windows according to the lease? In our case the windows were owned by the leaseholder, but the landlord was responsible for decorating them every 7 years which they'd not done....
If the lease says leaseholder owned then you shouldnt be asked to contribute, if they say freeholder owned then at the right point in the consultation process id be asking them to fit new windows to your property if they are being fitted throughout, unless they'd be willing to offer an equivalent rebate to the properties who already funded window replacement.
But excludes (unless expressly included)
the window and window frames.
Under the section - Purposes for which the maintenance charge is to be applied it states 'window and window frames'.
What I cannot see, is an exact % payable by each tenant towards costs specified in the lease - this to my knowledge has always been an equal share (so 1/12) and if I remember correctly, the reserve fund has always been sufficient to cover the larger costs (eg decorating).
I'll have to go through the lease in more detail, but I can't find an exact % or share specified for each tenant.
It does say ....
To pay the company maintanance charge being that percentage specified in Paragraph 17 of the Particulars of the expenses which the Company shall in relation to the estate reasonably and properly incur in each maintenance year in complying with the covenants on its part contained in clause 5 and schedule 7 hereto ...
Problem is, I can't find "Paragraph 17 of the Particulars of the expenses" ....
Edited by mph999 on Thursday 19th December 12:08
mph999 said:
According to the lease, the 'Demised Premises' includes the floors, internal wall coverings etc ... "the door and door frames and the glass fitted in the door frames and window frames".
But excludes (unless expressly included)
the window and window frames.
Under the section - Purposes for which the maintenance charge is to be applied it states 'window and window frames'.
What I cannot see, is an exact % payable by each tenant towards costs specified in the lease - this to my knowledge has always been an equal share (so 1/12) and if I remember correctly, the reserve fund has always been sufficient to cover the larger costs (eg decorating).
I'll have to go through the lease in more detail, but I can't find an exact % or share specified for each tenant.
It does say ....
To pay the company maintanance charge being that percentage specified in Paragraph 17 of the Particulars of the expenses which the Company shall in relation to the estate reasonably and properly incur in each maintenance year in complying with the covenants on its part contained in clause 5 and schedule 7 hereto ...
Problem is, I can't find "Paragraph 17 of the Particulars of the expenses" ....
Thats pretty common, as a former director of a management co, there will be a formula, if all flats are of the same size then it'll likely just be equal shares.But excludes (unless expressly included)
the window and window frames.
Under the section - Purposes for which the maintenance charge is to be applied it states 'window and window frames'.
What I cannot see, is an exact % payable by each tenant towards costs specified in the lease - this to my knowledge has always been an equal share (so 1/12) and if I remember correctly, the reserve fund has always been sufficient to cover the larger costs (eg decorating).
I'll have to go through the lease in more detail, but I can't find an exact % or share specified for each tenant.
It does say ....
To pay the company maintanance charge being that percentage specified in Paragraph 17 of the Particulars of the expenses which the Company shall in relation to the estate reasonably and properly incur in each maintenance year in complying with the covenants on its part contained in clause 5 and schedule 7 hereto ...
Problem is, I can't find "Paragraph 17 of the Particulars of the expenses" ....
Edited by mph999 on Thursday 19th December 12:08
If its a mix of 1-2 bed and 3 bed penthouses, then it'll either still be equal, or it'll be pro rata'd on sqft. Ask the management agent for clarification.
From what you have clarified effectively the windows belong to the management company
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