Roadside ANPR

[1-3-4-2]

Hi all,

I wonder what your thoughts are, just curious:

Years of casual coach driving opened my eyes to the scale of roadside surveillance that unfortunately seems unique to the UK and does not exist like this in the rest of Europe: roadside ANPR.

Some examples:
Get to Stonehenge- you are recorded https://showmystreet.com/#uh1ym_-13vj7_15.b_bg43
In and out of Beachy Head- you are recorded https://showmystreet.com/#u7ugh_5f25_4o.6_6h57
https://showmystreet.com/#u7yuo_4gv3_28.i_7h43
Remote St Ives got two as well https://showmystreet.com/#tw5in_-39hqb_2g.0_9h43[/...
Suddenly on the A303 you are recorded https://showmystreet.com/#uf58g_-1btny_16.i_1f43
Live in Selsey? You can't get in or out without police having a record about it https://showmystreet.com/#u7loj_-gqun_2d.3_-2g32
Go for a road test- you may get recoded although there's nothing wrong with it.
And good luck spotting the roadside cam here https://showmystreet.com/#unibt_-ck2n_8u.0_0h41 !

So over the years I mapped and partly crowd-sourced roadside ANPR cams and this is what I see https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1U4wPbUnK...
And I could do with more locations to add to the map to bring some transparency into it.

What I know:
ANPR data are stored for two years minimum.
Locations are not officially revealed (so you need to know what to look out for), potentially to avoid a backfire from the public if they see the scale ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/23/an...)
You only get access to your own data if it doesn't reveal camera locations (so you get nothing in reality because it will always reveal the cams). That alone constitutes spying- watching & recording you without your explicit knowledge or consent.
The network creates motion profiles, this ironically is why it is considered "personal information".
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nationa...


So what's the issue? For me it is fairly simple:
I do not want my movements recorded from undisclosed locations, stored on a searchable database for two years, not even have full rights of access - when I am not under any suspicion. That I call spying!
In contrast: All other public and private bodies allow full data access and do not hide camera locations. ISPs are bound to disclose everything about you and use TOR or a VPN, they know nothing! Same goes for phone locations, they are a by-product of tech and are fully accessible.
In even more contrast: The rest of Europe is at least equally safe without Big Brother watching without ieven telling you. It is even illegal in Germany, Austria, Switzerland to collect such data without people's knowledge, consent or suspicion ("informational self-determination").
Surveillance doesn't create trust, it creates suspicion. And _I am under surveillance once a camera is pointed at where I am!_

Nothing to hide? Well, I have and we may all have- should the state really know everything about us if as there is no reason or suspicion of wrongdoing? This isn't China or the GDR!
Shouldn't all surveillance be scaled back massively? You hardly even find council CCTV in France, Germany, NL etc...
Why not have a cam for facial recognition over everyone's front door, just in case? Police have been trying just that recently...

So I may start a parliament petition- suggesting surveillance in the UK be debated and scaled back, espcially ANPR. Bring it down to the level of other European countries. They are at least equally safe!
Side note: Untaxed vehicles- they go after the owner's / registered address in FR, NL, DE, AUS etc. very successfully, no cameras needed for that.

But what do you think, would there be any support for a petition? Would you share such a petition? Could you contribute to mapping more camera locations?
This topic has been discussed before, just long ago and not as surveilllance...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=14...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=47...
I am curious about your views:
Does the outcome justify the means and the creation of a huge surveillance spider?
How far should roadside surveillance go and why it is so much more in the UIK than in neighbouring countries?

[normalbloke]

I think ANPR is a fantastic tool, for bringing some of the utter scum that we share our roads with, to the attention of those that deal with it.

[vikingaero]

There was a murderer who was caught as a result of a "hidden" Police ANPR camera detecting him driving into the area, and they were able to trace and prove he did it.

You can go full tin foil, or you simply don't care, with the tin foiler shouting at you about 'ooman rights and privacy.

[Debaser]

I wouldn't be upset if all the cameras were torn down.

[pissonheads]

Those ANPR cameras must be busy in Bradford and Birmingham...

[Every day a journey]

ANPR is brilliant.

[1-3-4-2]

I mentioned neighbouring European countries (I travel a lot on the road) and they don't seem to be needing so much surveillance to achieve the same.

I questioned whether the outcome always justifies the means.
I don't think so, because other examples show there are other ways- so why not place a police cam over everyone's door too to record one's in and outs? It might catch a murderer...


This isn't about human rights, this is basically about our freedom and individual balance against the state (on the road and beyond) and trust in the referees...(hence I mentioned the GDR, and China).

So why is it that I can go driving around Europe and not have my movements recorded, yet not be surrounded by murderers?

[Every day a journey]

1-3-4-2 said:

I mentioned neighbouring European countries (I travel a lot on the road) and they don't seem to be needing so much surveillance to achieve the same.

I questioned whether the outcome always justifies the means.
I don't think so, because other examples show there are other ways- so why not place a police cam over everyone's door too to record one's in and outs? It might catch a murderer...


This isn't about human rights, this is basically about our freedom and individual balance against the state (on the road and beyond) and trust in the referees...(hence I mentioned the GDR, and China).

So why is it that I can go driving around Europe and not have my movements recorded, yet not be surrounded by murderers?

You think there are no murderers in mainland europe? Weird.

[Rushjob]

1-3-4-2 said:

I mentioned neighbouring European countries (I travel a lot on the road) and they don't seem to be needing so much surveillance to achieve the same.

I questioned whether the outcome always justifies the means.
I don't think so, because other examples show there are other ways- so why not place a police cam over everyone's door too to record one's in and outs? It might catch a murderer...


This isn't about human rights, this is basically about our freedom and individual balance against the state (on the road and beyond) and trust in the referees...(hence I mentioned the GDR, and China).

So why is it that I can go driving around Europe and not have my movements recorded, yet not be surrounded by murderers?

No ANPR in France? LOL!!!
They have even developed its use to barrier free tolls on Peages as well as Crit Air zones, on street parking and border crossings as well as its use in police vehicles and around city centres.
But yes, no ANPR in France........

[Killer2005]

You sound like a freeman of the land type, in which case the conspiracy thread is that way -->
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

You can already be traced through CCTV, mobile phone tracking, and banking records anyway, why worry about ANPR

Plus, what makes you interesting enough to warrant tracking anyway?

[MikeGTi]

I mean, if you were that concerned, you could always try this on the page you linked to:

[budgie smuggler]

Every day a journey said:

You think there are no murderers in mainland europe? Weird.

Try reading it again.

[Riley Blue]

1-3-4-2 said:

I mentioned neighbouring European countries (I travel a lot on the road) and they don't seem to be needing so much surveillance to achieve the same.

Because you haven't spotted it doesn't mean it doesn't exist e.g. Germany:

https://platerecognizer.com/germany-anpr/

https://www.carrida-technologies.com/en/

[LosingGrip]

ANPR is amazing. I love it.

Those who have nothing to hide don't have to worry about anything.

[fido]

Ditto. Someone in my locale was storing/trading and subsequently driving around in uninsured / untaxed cars. The neighbours got fed up and reported to the police - guy was caught (assume by ANPR) and pulled over.

[vikingaero]

Mr Googly, Mr Apple and Mr ISP have a mountain of your info already.

[gotoPzero]

Its 2025. Of course every major motorway, trunk and ring road is going to have ANPR.

They have for many, many years. I know where I lived for most of my adult life there has been ANPR on the trunk roads to some extent since around 2005. Motorways maybe a few years before that.

The main road near my old house got an ANPR camera in 2012.

Add into that the introductions of LEZs over the last 5 years or so you have now probably got 1000s more.

[EmailAddress]

LosingGrip said:

Those who have nothing to hide don't have to worry about anything.

The calling song of a wetbrain.

[ScoobyChris]

normalbloke said:

I think ANPR is a fantastic tool, for bringing some of the utter scum that we share our roads with, to the attention of those that deal with it.

Fantastic tech but a shame it's so easy to defeat as anyone who has had their plates cloned will tell you...

Chris

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

EmailAddress said:

LosingGrip said:

Those who have nothing to hide don't have to worry about anything.

The calling song of a wetbrain.

I had to Google that. Never heard of Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome.