Van hire alleged speeding offence - possibility of appeal?
Discussion
Hi all,
Not sure if I’ve got any grounds here, but I thought I’d ask anyway. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.
I received an email from my work last week, stating I had a speeding fine that had come up against a hire van I was driving some time ago. The email stated that my company were still awaiting further details of the alleged offence.
Today I receive another email stating they had received a NIP and that the alleged offence (58mph recorded in a 50mph area) took place on the 1st November 2024.
It has taken 81 days(!) since the alleged offence for the van hire company to request the driver details from my company, and for these details to be submitted to them.
My understanding is that a NIP has to be received within 14 days of the alleged offence, however, there is a grey area as far as my research goes with hire companies, as as long as the NIP is served within that time, there doesn’t seem to be a definitive time limit on passing on driver details? I am going to get in touch with the van hire company to see exactly when they received this NIP.
Am I within my rights to appeal the S172 form (when I finally receive it), on grounds of an unreasonable timescale?
Not sure if I’ve got any grounds here, but I thought I’d ask anyway. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.
I received an email from my work last week, stating I had a speeding fine that had come up against a hire van I was driving some time ago. The email stated that my company were still awaiting further details of the alleged offence.
Today I receive another email stating they had received a NIP and that the alleged offence (58mph recorded in a 50mph area) took place on the 1st November 2024.
It has taken 81 days(!) since the alleged offence for the van hire company to request the driver details from my company, and for these details to be submitted to them.
My understanding is that a NIP has to be received within 14 days of the alleged offence, however, there is a grey area as far as my research goes with hire companies, as as long as the NIP is served within that time, there doesn’t seem to be a definitive time limit on passing on driver details? I am going to get in touch with the van hire company to see exactly when they received this NIP.
Am I within my rights to appeal the S172 form (when I finally receive it), on grounds of an unreasonable timescale?
The NIP is a notification to the registered keeper or driver and that needs to be served within 14 days. Once that is done the NIP requirement is completed. Road Traffic Offenders Act S1.
There are circumstances when an NIP is not required. Same act section 2, the part almost nobody reads.
The NIP will be accompanied by a S172 requirement, not a request, to provide the name of the driver or information that may lead to the identification of the driver. No deadline on the service of this but it comes with a deadline time for the addressee to provide the information. 28 days. Road Traffic Act S172.
The police have a less than useful practice of reissuing an NIP to accompany the S172 form. This causes a waste of time and effort, as demonstrated by the OP, because on receipt of the combined NIP/S172 form a recipient thinks the NIP is late. It isn’t late, it is entirely superfluous. If any S172 requirement after the first that accompanied the NIP was sent without an NIP it would make things much clearer.
If an S172 requirement is served on you and you don’t respond adequately in the 28-day period then you commit an offence that has some statutory exemptions.
Combining the NIP with an S172 is useful for the registered keeper first notice stage, but not so useful afterwards. It confuses the matter.
If the OP can find the NIP to the registered keeper of the hire van was late then that is useful. If it was served in time then no so useful.
There are circumstances when an NIP is not required. Same act section 2, the part almost nobody reads.
The NIP will be accompanied by a S172 requirement, not a request, to provide the name of the driver or information that may lead to the identification of the driver. No deadline on the service of this but it comes with a deadline time for the addressee to provide the information. 28 days. Road Traffic Act S172.
The police have a less than useful practice of reissuing an NIP to accompany the S172 form. This causes a waste of time and effort, as demonstrated by the OP, because on receipt of the combined NIP/S172 form a recipient thinks the NIP is late. It isn’t late, it is entirely superfluous. If any S172 requirement after the first that accompanied the NIP was sent without an NIP it would make things much clearer.
If an S172 requirement is served on you and you don’t respond adequately in the 28-day period then you commit an offence that has some statutory exemptions.
Combining the NIP with an S172 is useful for the registered keeper first notice stage, but not so useful afterwards. It confuses the matter.
If the OP can find the NIP to the registered keeper of the hire van was late then that is useful. If it was served in time then no so useful.
Edited by 2020vision on Wednesday 22 January 08:25
2020vision said:
Combining the NIP with an S172 is useful for the registered keeper first notice stage, but not so useful afterwards. It confuses the matter.
Confuses in what way? Imagine all those posts on here. "I got an S712 request for who was driving on a certain day and I have no idea what the offence might be, what can I do?"BertBert said:
2020vision said:
Combining the NIP with an S172 is useful for the registered keeper first notice stage, but not so useful afterwards. It confuses the matter.
Confuses in what way? Imagine all those posts on here. "I got an S712 request for who was driving on a certain day and I have no idea what the offence might be, what can I do?"BertBert said:
2020vision said:
The S172 can describe the date/time/location/ nature of offence. Why wouldn’t it!!!
But you still haven't said why the nip is confusing. If you put the same info in the s172 Request, then by your argument it'll be confusing.The OP demonstrates my point…
Skienzy said:
Hi all,
Not sure if I’ve got any grounds here, but I thought I’d ask anyway. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.
I received an email from my work last week, stating I had a speeding fine that had come up against a hire van I was driving some time ago. The email stated that my company were still awaiting further details of the alleged offence.
Today I receive another email stating they had received a NIP and that the alleged offence (58mph recorded in a 50mph area) took place on the 1st November 2024.
It has taken 81 days(!) since the alleged offence for the van hire company to request the driver details from my company, and for these details to be submitted to them.
My understanding is that a NIP has to be received within 14 days of the alleged offence, however, there is a grey area as far as my research goes with hire companies, as as long as the NIP is served within that time, there doesn’t seem to be a definitive time limit on passing on driver details? I am going to get in touch with the van hire company to see exactly when they received this NIP.
Am I within my rights to appeal the S172 form (when I finally receive it), on grounds of an unreasonable timescale?
There you have it. The NIP being sent after 14 days, 81 in this case, caused confusion.Not sure if I’ve got any grounds here, but I thought I’d ask anyway. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.
I received an email from my work last week, stating I had a speeding fine that had come up against a hire van I was driving some time ago. The email stated that my company were still awaiting further details of the alleged offence.
Today I receive another email stating they had received a NIP and that the alleged offence (58mph recorded in a 50mph area) took place on the 1st November 2024.
It has taken 81 days(!) since the alleged offence for the van hire company to request the driver details from my company, and for these details to be submitted to them.
My understanding is that a NIP has to be received within 14 days of the alleged offence, however, there is a grey area as far as my research goes with hire companies, as as long as the NIP is served within that time, there doesn’t seem to be a definitive time limit on passing on driver details? I am going to get in touch with the van hire company to see exactly when they received this NIP.
Am I within my rights to appeal the S172 form (when I finally receive it), on grounds of an unreasonable timescale?
An S172 form that states:
1. This is not a notice of intended prosecution
2. A NIP in this case was served on the registered keeper within 14 days.
3. You have 28 days to supply the required information
What’s wrong with that?
Thanks for all the replies, it’s much appreciated.
I finally got the NIP through the post today (30th January), stating the alleged offence that took place on the 1/11/24. Not sure why the hire company took that long to ask my work for the driver details. The letter is dated 27th January.
It stayed I have 28 days to confirm whether or not I was the driver of the alleged offence. It states that I may be eligible for a driver awareness course instead of points and a fine if the driver details have been submitted back to Met Police BEFORE 29th January, however the letter is dated 27th January and was sent 2nd class (I’ve kept the barcoded envelope).
I’ve sent off the form today via 1st class post to the relevant PO Box. I’m hoping can appeal if they try and give me points and a fine instead of the speed awareness course, because:
a) as it’s my first offence,
b) in Band A of the speeding fine ‘table’.
c) There’s absolutely no way I could have adequately responded to their request to send the information back before the 29th January, as the letter was only posted 3 days before, 2nd class.
No idea why it’s taken this long for them to finally send me the letter, but not much I can do about it now.
I finally got the NIP through the post today (30th January), stating the alleged offence that took place on the 1/11/24. Not sure why the hire company took that long to ask my work for the driver details. The letter is dated 27th January.
It stayed I have 28 days to confirm whether or not I was the driver of the alleged offence. It states that I may be eligible for a driver awareness course instead of points and a fine if the driver details have been submitted back to Met Police BEFORE 29th January, however the letter is dated 27th January and was sent 2nd class (I’ve kept the barcoded envelope).
I’ve sent off the form today via 1st class post to the relevant PO Box. I’m hoping can appeal if they try and give me points and a fine instead of the speed awareness course, because:
a) as it’s my first offence,
b) in Band A of the speeding fine ‘table’.
c) There’s absolutely no way I could have adequately responded to their request to send the information back before the 29th January, as the letter was only posted 3 days before, 2nd class.
No idea why it’s taken this long for them to finally send me the letter, but not much I can do about it now.
Skienzy said:
Thanks for all the replies, it’s much appreciated.
I finally got the NIP through the post today (30th January), stating the alleged offence that took place on the 1/11/24. Not sure why the hire company took that long to ask my work for the driver details. The letter is dated 27th January.
It stayed I have 28 days to confirm whether or not I was the driver of the alleged offence. It states that I may be eligible for a driver awareness course instead of points and a fine if the driver details have been submitted back to Met Police BEFORE 29th January, however the letter is dated 27th January and was sent 2nd class (I’ve kept the barcoded envelope).
I’ve sent off the form today via 1st class post to the relevant PO Box. I’m hoping can appeal if they try and give me points and a fine instead of the speed awareness course, because:
a) as it’s my first offence,
b) in Band A of the speeding fine ‘table’.
c) There’s absolutely no way I could have adequately responded to their request to send the information back before the 29th January, as the letter was only posted 3 days before, 2nd class.
No idea why it’s taken this long for them to finally send me the letter, but not much I can do about it now.
Firstly there is no such thing as a right of appeal, it is a criminal offence and if you don't agree with the alleged offence you can go to court and plead not guilty. Assuming that's not going to be your course of action then you will receive an offer of a fixed penalty £100 and 3 points or quite probably the offer of a courseI finally got the NIP through the post today (30th January), stating the alleged offence that took place on the 1/11/24. Not sure why the hire company took that long to ask my work for the driver details. The letter is dated 27th January.
It stayed I have 28 days to confirm whether or not I was the driver of the alleged offence. It states that I may be eligible for a driver awareness course instead of points and a fine if the driver details have been submitted back to Met Police BEFORE 29th January, however the letter is dated 27th January and was sent 2nd class (I’ve kept the barcoded envelope).
I’ve sent off the form today via 1st class post to the relevant PO Box. I’m hoping can appeal if they try and give me points and a fine instead of the speed awareness course, because:
a) as it’s my first offence,
b) in Band A of the speeding fine ‘table’.
c) There’s absolutely no way I could have adequately responded to their request to send the information back before the 29th January, as the letter was only posted 3 days before, 2nd class.
No idea why it’s taken this long for them to finally send me the letter, but not much I can do about it now.
For your questions:
a makes no diiference
b Ignore, that is if you chose to go to court
c Possibly a typo, they have already stated you have 28 days to reply, that is all you need to conform with
As it has taken so long to get to you, you have nothing to gain by stringing out the time, if you respond promptly, then you should still get offered a course, anything more than 4 months from the offence date will probably scupper your chances
Skienzy said:
Thanks for all the replies, it’s much appreciated.
I finally got the NIP through the post today (30th January), stating the alleged offence that took place on the 1/11/24. Not sure why the hire company took that long to ask my work for the driver details. The letter is dated 27th January.
Many years ago one of my first jobs was working at a hire company and one of the many tedious admin roles I had to perform was dealing with the NIPs when they came in. This was a time when to find a rental agreement I would have to go searching through a filing cabinet and make photocopies and such like. Truly tedious so it was often left until the last minute.I finally got the NIP through the post today (30th January), stating the alleged offence that took place on the 1/11/24. Not sure why the hire company took that long to ask my work for the driver details. The letter is dated 27th January.
Also the NIP would be returned to the issuing force, not to any employer, and it would be them who would reissue it to the employer. The employer would then go through the tedious process of identifying who was driving before sending that back to the issuing force who would then reissue the NIP to your good self.
jurbie said:
Many years ago one of my first jobs was working at a hire company and one of the many tedious admin roles I had to perform was dealing with the NIPs when they came in. This was a time when to find a rental agreement I would have to go searching through a filing cabinet and make photocopies and such like. Truly tedious so it was often left until the last minute.
Also the NIP would be returned to the issuing force, not to any employer, and it would be them who would reissue it to the employer. The employer would then go through the tedious process of identifying who was driving before sending that back to the issuing force who would then reissue the NIP to your good self.
Well I am no expert in such matters, but it looks to me from S172 that the hire company as RK are required to give the ID of the driver when asked. So it would make sense for them to contact the hirer (when it's not clear who the actual driver is) and ask.Also the NIP would be returned to the issuing force, not to any employer, and it would be them who would reissue it to the employer. The employer would then go through the tedious process of identifying who was driving before sending that back to the issuing force who would then reissue the NIP to your good self.
BertBert said:
jurbie said:
Many years ago one of my first jobs was working at a hire company and one of the many tedious admin roles I had to perform was dealing with the NIPs when they came in. This was a time when to find a rental agreement I would have to go searching through a filing cabinet and make photocopies and such like. Truly tedious so it was often left until the last minute.
Also the NIP would be returned to the issuing force, not to any employer, and it would be them who would reissue it to the employer. The employer would then go through the tedious process of identifying who was driving before sending that back to the issuing force who would then reissue the NIP to your good self.
Well I am no expert in such matters, but it looks to me from S172 that the hire company as RK are required to give the ID of the driver when asked. So it would make sense for them to contact the hirer (when it's not clear who the actual driver is) and ask.Also the NIP would be returned to the issuing force, not to any employer, and it would be them who would reissue it to the employer. The employer would then go through the tedious process of identifying who was driving before sending that back to the issuing force who would then reissue the NIP to your good self.
martinbiz said:
Skienzy said:
Thanks for all the replies, it’s much appreciated.
I finally got the NIP through the post today (30th January), stating the alleged offence that took place on the 1/11/24. Not sure why the hire company took that long to ask my work for the driver details. The letter is dated 27th January.
It stayed I have 28 days to confirm whether or not I was the driver of the alleged offence. It states that I may be eligible for a driver awareness course instead of points and a fine if the driver details have been submitted back to Met Police BEFORE 29th January, however the letter is dated 27th January and was sent 2nd class (I’ve kept the barcoded envelope).
I’ve sent off the form today via 1st class post to the relevant PO Box. I’m hoping can appeal if they try and give me points and a fine instead of the speed awareness course, because:
a) as it’s my first offence,
b) in Band A of the speeding fine ‘table’.
c) There’s absolutely no way I could have adequately responded to their request to send the information back before the 29th January, as the letter was only posted 3 days before, 2nd class.
No idea why it’s taken this long for them to finally send me the letter, but not much I can do about it now.
Firstly there is no such thing as a right of appeal, it is a criminal offence and if you don't agree with the alleged offence you can go to court and plead not guilty. Assuming that's not going to be your course of action then you will receive an offer of a fixed penalty £100 and 3 points or quite probably the offer of a courseI finally got the NIP through the post today (30th January), stating the alleged offence that took place on the 1/11/24. Not sure why the hire company took that long to ask my work for the driver details. The letter is dated 27th January.
It stayed I have 28 days to confirm whether or not I was the driver of the alleged offence. It states that I may be eligible for a driver awareness course instead of points and a fine if the driver details have been submitted back to Met Police BEFORE 29th January, however the letter is dated 27th January and was sent 2nd class (I’ve kept the barcoded envelope).
I’ve sent off the form today via 1st class post to the relevant PO Box. I’m hoping can appeal if they try and give me points and a fine instead of the speed awareness course, because:
a) as it’s my first offence,
b) in Band A of the speeding fine ‘table’.
c) There’s absolutely no way I could have adequately responded to their request to send the information back before the 29th January, as the letter was only posted 3 days before, 2nd class.
No idea why it’s taken this long for them to finally send me the letter, but not much I can do about it now.
For your questions:
a makes no diiference
b Ignore, that is if you chose to go to court
c Possibly a typo, they have already stated you have 28 days to reply, that is all you need to conform with
As it has taken so long to get to you, you have nothing to gain by stringing out the time, if you respond promptly, then you should still get offered a course, anything more than 4 months from the offence date will probably scupper your chances
Skienzy said:
This is what I don’t get. It’s all online now, so why did it take so long for them to write to my employer to ask who the driver of the vehicle was?
From my own experience, the hire company may not be the registered keeper, that could be a leasing company (that may or not be owned by the hiring company) Depending on how it was hired, it could just be your company name on the hire agreement. When the company I worked for had to hire in a vehicle, they were often hired to the company as vans would often be used by several people. Humans make mistakes.
Skienzy said:
BertBert said:
jurbie said:
Many years ago one of my first jobs was working at a hire company and one of the many tedious admin roles I had to perform was dealing with the NIPs when they came in. This was a time when to find a rental agreement I would have to go searching through a filing cabinet and make photocopies and such like. Truly tedious so it was often left until the last minute.
Also the NIP would be returned to the issuing force, not to any employer, and it would be them who would reissue it to the employer. The employer would then go through the tedious process of identifying who was driving before sending that back to the issuing force who would then reissue the NIP to your good self.
Well I am no expert in such matters, but it looks to me from S172 that the hire company as RK are required to give the ID of the driver when asked. So it would make sense for them to contact the hirer (when it's not clear who the actual driver is) and ask.Also the NIP would be returned to the issuing force, not to any employer, and it would be them who would reissue it to the employer. The employer would then go through the tedious process of identifying who was driving before sending that back to the issuing force who would then reissue the NIP to your good self.
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