Gantry temp speed limits
Discussion
So, you’re barrelling along the motorway at 70mph and you are confronted by gantry speed limit signs. The limits for lanes 1 and 2 are set at 40mph but lane 3 is set at 60mph, or is even completely blank.
Practically you’d haul out the anchors down to 40 even if you were in lane 3, but I wonder what the actual law says. I note that the Highway Code strongly suggests that gantry signs are lane specific (clause 256) and apply to individual lanes’.
Also, as a separate issue, after having passed a temporary speed limit sign, when may you revert to that national speed limit if there is no subsequent derestricted sign? What does the law say about this (I am aware of various pieces of advice of course)?
Practically you’d haul out the anchors down to 40 even if you were in lane 3, but I wonder what the actual law says. I note that the Highway Code strongly suggests that gantry signs are lane specific (clause 256) and apply to individual lanes’.
Also, as a separate issue, after having passed a temporary speed limit sign, when may you revert to that national speed limit if there is no subsequent derestricted sign? What does the law say about this (I am aware of various pieces of advice of course)?
I find the M6 worse for this, you can often see numerous different speeds and I have personally been done there, a very common place for it to be 40 from 60, ridiculous II have to say there I think it is deliberate as every time I see a limit I never see any incident there, it is a very dangerous piece of road, primarily responsible for the recovery lanes revamp policy as a kid was killed there years ago as there is no relief area for miles, idiotic idea to do it there.
And I can tell you it took a long time for my info to come through which suggests they are overwhelmed with business, and I did see that camera was the most profitable in the country at one time.
And I can tell you it took a long time for my info to come through which suggests they are overwhelmed with business, and I did see that camera was the most profitable in the country at one time.
bergclimber34 said:
I find the M6 worse for this, you can often see numerous different speeds and I have personally been done there, a very common place for it to be 40 from 60, ridiculous II have to say there I think it is deliberate as every time I see a limit I never see any incident there, it is a very dangerous piece of road, primarily responsible for the recovery lanes revamp policy as a kid was killed there years ago as there is no relief area for miles, idiotic idea to do it there.
And I can tell you it took a long time for my info to come through which suggests they are overwhelmed with business, and I did see that camera was the most profitable in the country at one time.
There doesn’t have to be an incident. Prevention is better than cure. How is slowing from 60 to 40 dangerous?And I can tell you it took a long time for my info to come through which suggests they are overwhelmed with business, and I did see that camera was the most profitable in the country at one time.
Lotus17racer said:
So, you’re barrelling along the motorway at 70mph and you are confronted by gantry speed limit signs. The limits for lanes 1 and 2 are set at 40mph but lane 3 is set at 60mph, or is even completely blank.
How bad are your eyes/the conditions that it matters??And is this even possible? The control is central and it makes no sense to have each sign individually controlled.
Lotus17racer said:
So, you’re barrelling along the motorway at 70mph and you are confronted by gantry speed limit signs. The limits for lanes 1 and 2 are set at 40mph but lane 3 is set at 60mph, or is even completely blank.
Practically you’d haul out the anchors down to 40 even if you were in lane 3, but I wonder what the actual law says. I note that the Highway Code strongly suggests that gantry signs are lane specific (clause 256) and apply to individual lanes’.
Also, as a separate issue, after having passed a temporary speed limit sign, when may you revert to that national speed limit if there is no subsequent derestricted sign? What does the law say about this (I am aware of various pieces of advice of course)?
Happens often on my bit m62Practically you’d haul out the anchors down to 40 even if you were in lane 3, but I wonder what the actual law says. I note that the Highway Code strongly suggests that gantry signs are lane specific (clause 256) and apply to individual lanes’.
Also, as a separate issue, after having passed a temporary speed limit sign, when may you revert to that national speed limit if there is no subsequent derestricted sign? What does the law say about this (I am aware of various pieces of advice of course)?
Gantry shows lane closed, 50, blank and NSL!
Lotus17racer said:
So, you’re barrelling along the motorway at 70mph and you are confronted by gantry speed limit signs. The limits for lanes 1 and 2 are set at 40mph but lane 3 is set at 60mph, or is even completely blank.
Practically you’d haul out the anchors down to 40 even if you were in lane 3, but I wonder what the actual law says. I note that the Highway Code strongly suggests that gantry signs are lane specific (clause 256) and apply to individual lanes’.
Also, as a separate issue, after having passed a temporary speed limit sign, when may you revert to that national speed limit if there is no subsequent derestricted sign? What does the law say about this (I am aware of various pieces of advice of course)?
The speed limit would be somewhat debatable if there are different limits displayed on different lanes. However if there is a mixture of limits displayed as you describe the HADECS speed camera would enforce the National Speed limit. This is because the display of different speed limits in different lanes on one gantry is a fault condition.Practically you’d haul out the anchors down to 40 even if you were in lane 3, but I wonder what the actual law says. I note that the Highway Code strongly suggests that gantry signs are lane specific (clause 256) and apply to individual lanes’.
Also, as a separate issue, after having passed a temporary speed limit sign, when may you revert to that national speed limit if there is no subsequent derestricted sign? What does the law say about this (I am aware of various pieces of advice of course)?
An illuminated speed limit sign above a lane applies to the whole carriageway NOT the lane.
The same illuminated sign with a Red-X sign on it applies to the lane below that sign.
If you pass an illuminated speed limit sign it remains that speed limit until you reach a sign showing a different speed or a National Speed Limit sign.
When the part of the motorway that is subject to the VSL scheme comes to an end, there will be a fixed blue motorway signs that says “end of variable speed limit” and it will be written above a national speed limit sign. So there is always an NSL sign to de-restrict the motorway limit.
Remember well that an illuminated sign board that is not lit is a big black rectangle and IS NOT A TRAFFIC SIGN.
Thank you 2020.
I do find it extraordinary that if we pass (say) a 40 temp limit, that limit prevails until we leave the motorway (in the absence of a subsequent sign). I had one not so long ago with a 30 limit, which sort of prompted me to pose the question. Of course, cars joining the motorway will presumably be under a different legal speed limit since they will not have passed any temp 40 limit sign. I suppose I should come off at the next junction and then immediately rejoin!
Is anyone aware of what steps are taken to bring the providers of this scheme to book? This situation is not a rare occurrence. It is not even limited to gantry imposed limits: for example, the temp 50 limit (actually, this is not an electronically-imposed limit but a manual sign-imposed limit) on the M25 around J5 clockwise does not have a derestricted sign around the M23 whereabouts it is 'meant' to finish, so it must legally continue until the next 'random' sign. It's been like this for very many weeks. Anyone from Nat Highways reading this who can provide a different perspective?
In relation to this and the 'lane specific' clause 256 of the Highway Code, do we have any indication on what traffic police's policy is in this regard?
Anyway, there we go. Governmental IT incompetence is accepted and the public pays.
I do find it extraordinary that if we pass (say) a 40 temp limit, that limit prevails until we leave the motorway (in the absence of a subsequent sign). I had one not so long ago with a 30 limit, which sort of prompted me to pose the question. Of course, cars joining the motorway will presumably be under a different legal speed limit since they will not have passed any temp 40 limit sign. I suppose I should come off at the next junction and then immediately rejoin!
Is anyone aware of what steps are taken to bring the providers of this scheme to book? This situation is not a rare occurrence. It is not even limited to gantry imposed limits: for example, the temp 50 limit (actually, this is not an electronically-imposed limit but a manual sign-imposed limit) on the M25 around J5 clockwise does not have a derestricted sign around the M23 whereabouts it is 'meant' to finish, so it must legally continue until the next 'random' sign. It's been like this for very many weeks. Anyone from Nat Highways reading this who can provide a different perspective?
In relation to this and the 'lane specific' clause 256 of the Highway Code, do we have any indication on what traffic police's policy is in this regard?
Anyway, there we go. Governmental IT incompetence is accepted and the public pays.
Fore Left said:
On that basis what's the speed limit in the pic above yours then, 50 or 70?
I will just repeat what I posted above. Perhaps read each word very slowly until you understand.The speed limit would be somewhat debatable if there are different limits displayed on different lanes. However if there is a mixture of limits displayed as you describe the HADECS speed camera would enforce the National Speed limit. This is because the display of different speed limits in different lanes on one gantry is a fault condition.
Lotus17racer said:
Thank you 2020.
I do find it extraordinary that if we pass (say) a 40 temp limit, that limit prevails until we leave the motorway (in the absence of a subsequent sign). I had one not so long ago with a 30 limit, which sort of prompted me to pose the question. Of course, cars joining the motorway will presumably be under a different legal speed limit since they will not have passed any temp 40 limit sign. I suppose I should come off at the next junction and then immediately rejoin!
Why is it extraordinary? That is how speed limit signs work.I do find it extraordinary that if we pass (say) a 40 temp limit, that limit prevails until we leave the motorway (in the absence of a subsequent sign). I had one not so long ago with a 30 limit, which sort of prompted me to pose the question. Of course, cars joining the motorway will presumably be under a different legal speed limit since they will not have passed any temp 40 limit sign. I suppose I should come off at the next junction and then immediately rejoin!
If there is no subsequent gantry, the speed limit ends at the End Of Variable Speed Limit Sign.
It is a very simple principle. Like any other limit really.
I find it extraordinary that it is difficult to perceive.
Lotus17racer said:
Is anyone aware of what steps are taken to bring the providers of this scheme to book? This situation is not a rare occurrence. It is not even limited to gantry imposed limits: for example, the temp 50 limit (actually, this is not an electronically-imposed limit but a manual sign-imposed limit) on the M25 around J5 clockwise does not have a derestricted sign around the M23 whereabouts it is 'meant' to finish, so it must legally continue until the next 'random' sign. It's been like this for very many weeks. Anyone from Nat Highways reading this who can provide a different perspective?
To book for what? The system is legislated by HMG. Drivers should really know this stuff.If you think that there has been an omission of a derestriction sign on the seperate road, pas your concern to the National Highways enquiry portal on their website. I am sure they will fix the defect if you have found one or will explain why there is none if that is the case. Each region has an enforcement coordinator whose job it is to deal with this sort of issue.
I am certain they will be glad to assist you.
Lotus17racer said:
In relation to this and the 'lane specific' clause 256 of the Highway Code, do we have any indication on what traffic police's policy is in this regard?
Anyway, there we go. Governmental IT incompetence is accepted and the public pays.
If there is a speeding offence above 70mph they will enforce it. Or will not as they see fit. The speed cameras on the motorway will default to enforcing 70mph with this combination of signs. Anyway, there we go. Governmental IT incompetence is accepted and the public pays.
While there may be many instances of government IT disasters, I don’t see any evidence of one in this instance.
It's not speed that kills, it's changing speed suddenly that does the damage.
I agree that sudden changes by 20 or more mph on a busy motorway are dangerous.
It's the concetina effect (I am sure it has a proper name).
The first driver brakes sharply, the second driver in the solid stream takes a moment to register, then brakes harder to avoid a colllision, the third driver has even less time to react, brakes even harder and inevitably there's a crash.
About 20 years ago I lived just north of the A14 outside Cambridge. There were gatso cameras every couple of miles.
Four evenings our of five the traffic was stationery because the road was blocked by a multi-vehicle accident.
What was happening was what I describe above, caused by drivers bowling along between 60 and 80 mph, seeing the next camera and slamming on down to 50, because a remarkably high proportion of the motoring public haven't got a scooby doo about speed limits on dual carnageways.
The authorities took the brilliant step of changing the gatsos for average speed cameras.
I know we hate average speed cameras, but in this case getting the traffic moving all at the same constant speed cured the probem.
The slamming on every two miles stopped overnight, and the road closures went from 200 a year to occasionally.
I agree that sudden changes by 20 or more mph on a busy motorway are dangerous.
It's the concetina effect (I am sure it has a proper name).
The first driver brakes sharply, the second driver in the solid stream takes a moment to register, then brakes harder to avoid a colllision, the third driver has even less time to react, brakes even harder and inevitably there's a crash.
About 20 years ago I lived just north of the A14 outside Cambridge. There were gatso cameras every couple of miles.
Four evenings our of five the traffic was stationery because the road was blocked by a multi-vehicle accident.
What was happening was what I describe above, caused by drivers bowling along between 60 and 80 mph, seeing the next camera and slamming on down to 50, because a remarkably high proportion of the motoring public haven't got a scooby doo about speed limits on dual carnageways.
The authorities took the brilliant step of changing the gatsos for average speed cameras.
I know we hate average speed cameras, but in this case getting the traffic moving all at the same constant speed cured the probem.
The slamming on every two miles stopped overnight, and the road closures went from 200 a year to occasionally.
bergclimber34 said:
I find the M6 worse for this, you can often see numerous different speeds and I have personally been done there, a very common place for it to be 40 from 60, ridiculous II have to say there I think it is deliberate as every time I see a limit I never see any incident there, it is a very dangerous piece of road, primarily responsible for the recovery lanes revamp policy as a kid was killed there years ago as there is no relief area for miles, idiotic idea to do it there.
One of my pet peeves of driving on the M4/M25 in the later part of the evening. Speed limits change on every gantry. 60>50>40>60>50>60. It can be quite ridiculous, also it's proof that the limit is not there for a reason when it changes on every gantry. So, 2020, in summary you are of the opinion that all motorists on a motorway if they pass a 30 mph gantry limit should remain at that speed as a maximum until they exit the motorway if there is no further speed limit direction. I did not say that there was no subsequent gantry, rather than there was no subsequent sign to replace the earlier gantry-imposed limit (for example if all the subsequent gantries were unlit, as can not rarely be the case). That you say is the clear and easy to perceive law.
In your strongly-worded answer to Fore Left, what you did not post was an answer to his (in my opinion) reasonable question. This was, as you may read, what would be the speed limit imposed for him in that lane. You simply said that the speed cameras would not operate below 70mph. That may be true, but what would be the legal maximum speed limit in this circumstance. It is not that rare an occurrence. I would like to know and I suspect that Fore Left and Patio would too.
You do not address the point that motorists joining at a subsequent junction will not have passed the earlier 30 mph gantry speed restriction and are therefore under a different speed limit of 70. You may not regard that as extraordinary and a very simple procedure, but many people would find it both. Unless you have an answer which I, as a clearly very simple person, can understand in which case I would be pleased to have it told to me.
I apologise for coming across as being very thick.
In your strongly-worded answer to Fore Left, what you did not post was an answer to his (in my opinion) reasonable question. This was, as you may read, what would be the speed limit imposed for him in that lane. You simply said that the speed cameras would not operate below 70mph. That may be true, but what would be the legal maximum speed limit in this circumstance. It is not that rare an occurrence. I would like to know and I suspect that Fore Left and Patio would too.
You do not address the point that motorists joining at a subsequent junction will not have passed the earlier 30 mph gantry speed restriction and are therefore under a different speed limit of 70. You may not regard that as extraordinary and a very simple procedure, but many people would find it both. Unless you have an answer which I, as a clearly very simple person, can understand in which case I would be pleased to have it told to me.
I apologise for coming across as being very thick.
Puggit said:
bergclimber34 said:
I find the M6 worse for this, you can often see numerous different speeds and I have personally been done there, a very common place for it to be 40 from 60, ridiculous II have to say there I think it is deliberate as every time I see a limit I never see any incident there, it is a very dangerous piece of road, primarily responsible for the recovery lanes revamp policy as a kid was killed there years ago as there is no relief area for miles, idiotic idea to do it there.
One of my pet peeves of driving on the M4/M25 in the later part of the evening. Speed limits change on every gantry. 60>50>40>60>50>60. It can be quite ridiculous, also it's proof that the limit is not there for a reason when it changes on every gantry. I am not saying that it is being correctly applied or not, but just because you don't know the logic doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Do the NSL signs get left illuminated until the last vehicle to pass the first restriction sign has had time to pass the NSL? If all the restriction and final NSL are turned off at the same time then drivers will be left in limbo. I'm sure that's been thought of, as it's so obvious.
Unlucky anyone who breaks down in the restricted zone as they might have to complete their journey at the reduced speed if the restriction is lifted while they wait for repair.
Unlucky anyone who breaks down in the restricted zone as they might have to complete their journey at the reduced speed if the restriction is lifted while they wait for repair.
QBee said:
It's not speed that kills, it's changing speed suddenly that does the damage.
I agree that sudden changes by 20 or more mph on a busy motorway are dangerous.
It's the concetina effect (I am sure it has a proper name).
The first driver brakes sharply, the second driver in the solid stream takes a moment to register, then brakes harder to avoid a colllision, the third driver has even less time to react, brakes even harder and inevitably there's a crash.
The reason why variable speed limits were introduced was to help prevent such accidents happening.I agree that sudden changes by 20 or more mph on a busy motorway are dangerous.
It's the concetina effect (I am sure it has a proper name).
The first driver brakes sharply, the second driver in the solid stream takes a moment to register, then brakes harder to avoid a colllision, the third driver has even less time to react, brakes even harder and inevitably there's a crash.
Lotus17racer said:
So, 2020, in summary you are of the opinion that all motorists on a motorway if they pass a 30 mph gantry limit should remain at that speed as a maximum until they exit the motorway if there is no further speed limit direction. I did not say that there was no subsequent gantry, rather than there was no subsequent sign to replace the earlier gantry-imposed limit (for example if all the subsequent gantries were unlit, as can not rarely be the case). That you say is the clear and easy to perceive law.
In your strongly-worded answer to Fore Left, what you did not post was an answer to his (in my opinion) reasonable question. This was, as you may read, what would be the speed limit imposed for him in that lane. You simply said that the speed cameras would not operate below 70mph. That may be true, but what would be the legal maximum speed limit in this circumstance. It is not that rare an occurrence. I would like to know and I suspect that Fore Left and Patio would too.
You do not address the point that motorists joining at a subsequent junction will not have passed the earlier 30 mph gantry speed restriction and are therefore under a different speed limit of 70. You may not regard that as extraordinary and a very simple procedure, but many people would find it both. Unless you have an answer which I, as a clearly very simple person, can understand in which case I would be pleased to have it told to me.
I apologise for coming across as being very thick.
You didn't come across as being thick. He came across as a dick. Ignore him.In your strongly-worded answer to Fore Left, what you did not post was an answer to his (in my opinion) reasonable question. This was, as you may read, what would be the speed limit imposed for him in that lane. You simply said that the speed cameras would not operate below 70mph. That may be true, but what would be the legal maximum speed limit in this circumstance. It is not that rare an occurrence. I would like to know and I suspect that Fore Left and Patio would too.
You do not address the point that motorists joining at a subsequent junction will not have passed the earlier 30 mph gantry speed restriction and are therefore under a different speed limit of 70. You may not regard that as extraordinary and a very simple procedure, but many people would find it both. Unless you have an answer which I, as a clearly very simple person, can understand in which case I would be pleased to have it told to me.
I apologise for coming across as being very thick.
I do sadly believe that a lot of the endless chopping and changing of speed limits on the M6 is profiteering, yes traffic needs to be controlled but other smart motorways and sections manage it without the endless 60,50.40,50,40,60 stuff that happens withing a few mile son there.
there is also the fact they are determined to make it so much easier to use the Toll obviously despite it being insanely dear for such a short stretch of road.
there is also the fact they are determined to make it so much easier to use the Toll obviously despite it being insanely dear for such a short stretch of road.
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