Access to a child
Discussion
Hi all, looking for some advice, not for me but a friend (really)
A mate of mine has two kids with two different women, he was with the first woman for a fair few years then they split up, he saw his lad a lot. Then he got with woman 2, Woman 1 refused him access to his lad, his lad is now about 15/16 and he sees him again.
Woman 2 and him had a girl together then split up when she was about 2, she is roughly 4.5 now but turns out shes been refusing access to the girl for 2 years.
My friend works full time and pays maintenance on both kids, never missed a payment, he wants to see both kids. Hes tried talking to Woman 2 face to face, via text etc but shes having none of it, somehow shes managed to get a injunction taken out on him so he cant go near the house etc. I'm not sure why they split up, but he has said there was no violence etc. Bloke hardly drinks, certainly no drugs involved.
Bloke has no criminal record or anything, never been in trouble at all, hes put a bit of a desperate post out on Facebook tonight saying can anybody help as hes at a loss how to handle it now, she doesn't work so shes told him "see you in court" as she knows shes not gotta pay for it. He's basically said I cant afford circa 20k to take her to court.
I'm pretty sure he would get awarded 50/50 if it did go to court (my wife took her ex to court and they ended up with 50/50).
First thing I thought of is stop paying the maintenance, let her take you to court and then tell the court why you have stopped, but I'm pretty sure her side would use that against him.
Anybody been in this situation have any advice?
A mate of mine has two kids with two different women, he was with the first woman for a fair few years then they split up, he saw his lad a lot. Then he got with woman 2, Woman 1 refused him access to his lad, his lad is now about 15/16 and he sees him again.
Woman 2 and him had a girl together then split up when she was about 2, she is roughly 4.5 now but turns out shes been refusing access to the girl for 2 years.
My friend works full time and pays maintenance on both kids, never missed a payment, he wants to see both kids. Hes tried talking to Woman 2 face to face, via text etc but shes having none of it, somehow shes managed to get a injunction taken out on him so he cant go near the house etc. I'm not sure why they split up, but he has said there was no violence etc. Bloke hardly drinks, certainly no drugs involved.
Bloke has no criminal record or anything, never been in trouble at all, hes put a bit of a desperate post out on Facebook tonight saying can anybody help as hes at a loss how to handle it now, she doesn't work so shes told him "see you in court" as she knows shes not gotta pay for it. He's basically said I cant afford circa 20k to take her to court.
I'm pretty sure he would get awarded 50/50 if it did go to court (my wife took her ex to court and they ended up with 50/50).
First thing I thought of is stop paying the maintenance, let her take you to court and then tell the court why you have stopped, but I'm pretty sure her side would use that against him.
Anybody been in this situation have any advice?
I am by no means a legal expert, but in the limited experience I’ve had, maintenance comes with access.
Obviously, a Dad cannot just absolve his responsibilities and choose to pay no maintenance in return for no access.
However, if one does pay, then access should come with it.
This ‘injunction’ is key. Not given out lightly. Details required.
Obviously, a Dad cannot just absolve his responsibilities and choose to pay no maintenance in return for no access.
However, if one does pay, then access should come with it.
This ‘injunction’ is key. Not given out lightly. Details required.
The injunction is likely to be a non molestion order. Done via the civil courts but enforced by the police.
Similar to a restraining order, but no conviction is needed to get one.
Not too difficult to get one, and if you've been told the truth by your friend, it's likely that is enough for one to be granted.
It may be worth speaking to ACAS or the like. It's likely to be messy and expensive.
Similar to a restraining order, but no conviction is needed to get one.
Not too difficult to get one, and if you've been told the truth by your friend, it's likely that is enough for one to be granted.
It may be worth speaking to ACAS or the like. It's likely to be messy and expensive.
Muzzer79 said:
I am by no means a legal expert, but in the limited experience I’ve had, maintenance comes with access.
Not necessarily, by that I mean most settle on an agreement that covers both, but that is just because the amount of access/overnight stays can be reflected in the maintenance, but it does not HAVE to.Muzzer79 said:
This ‘injunction’ is key. Not given out lightly. Details required.
This, if the injunction was reasonable under "the circumstances" that we do not know, then that will be key.However IANAL.
Edited by E-bmw on Monday 27th January 09:06
I’ve had to take my former Wife back through the family courts time and time again over access to my Children. This has now dragged-on for nearly six years.
Family Courts are a waste of time and money.
I’m the wrong side of £100k down in legal fees and in effect, still no further forwards. The major issue I have found witn the Family Court is that you can spend money in legal fees, court applications and flash Barristers and ultimately you’ll get what you’ve set out to achieve from them in the form of a Child Arrangement Order.
However - this is the problem and where the Family Court system is not for for purpose…
If Mum decides to go against the Order in place (that you’ve spent ‘000’s in achieving) then Mum simply skips down the Court Steps and then blatantly ignores the Judge - there is absolutely no punishment for Mum in ignoring the order. Can you recall the last time when you read in the local newspaper about a Mum being punished or sent to HMP for wilfully ignoring Court order after Court order?
No, thought not.
I’ve seen it time, and time again with my Former Wife and no matter how many times you take her back through the Family Court system for enforcement of the Order you’ve got, the Judge will read her the riot act, she’ll promise the Judge it won’t happen again - and guess what - you rinse and repeat at £8k a time.
What is more of a concern is that this has been the case with the numerous Judges I’ve seen in numerous Family Courts - so the inefficiencies are not related to one individual Judge or one individual Court, it’s systemic and the system is broken.
Sorry to be a neigh-sayer but it’s not a process I would be keen to go through again - and I’ve got thick skin - nor would I recommend any other Father do it as it’s emotional, expensive, long, and laborious with real solution at the end of it. If Mum does not want to be bound by the order, then she’ll be at best tolerated, at worse, supported by the people who issued the order in the first place.
One thing of note if your friend does go down this route, this restraining order or some such will be a major problem…
Family Courts are a waste of time and money.
I’m the wrong side of £100k down in legal fees and in effect, still no further forwards. The major issue I have found witn the Family Court is that you can spend money in legal fees, court applications and flash Barristers and ultimately you’ll get what you’ve set out to achieve from them in the form of a Child Arrangement Order.
However - this is the problem and where the Family Court system is not for for purpose…
If Mum decides to go against the Order in place (that you’ve spent ‘000’s in achieving) then Mum simply skips down the Court Steps and then blatantly ignores the Judge - there is absolutely no punishment for Mum in ignoring the order. Can you recall the last time when you read in the local newspaper about a Mum being punished or sent to HMP for wilfully ignoring Court order after Court order?
No, thought not.
I’ve seen it time, and time again with my Former Wife and no matter how many times you take her back through the Family Court system for enforcement of the Order you’ve got, the Judge will read her the riot act, she’ll promise the Judge it won’t happen again - and guess what - you rinse and repeat at £8k a time.
What is more of a concern is that this has been the case with the numerous Judges I’ve seen in numerous Family Courts - so the inefficiencies are not related to one individual Judge or one individual Court, it’s systemic and the system is broken.
Sorry to be a neigh-sayer but it’s not a process I would be keen to go through again - and I’ve got thick skin - nor would I recommend any other Father do it as it’s emotional, expensive, long, and laborious with real solution at the end of it. If Mum does not want to be bound by the order, then she’ll be at best tolerated, at worse, supported by the people who issued the order in the first place.
One thing of note if your friend does go down this route, this restraining order or some such will be a major problem…
Edited by ADJimbo on Monday 27th January 10:57
IANAL but I am a long time divorced, with two kids and an ex with an inexhaustible supply of green ink.
Of course, the friend would be within his rights to approach the Child Maintenance Service and get his payments reviewed after 12 months, the codicil being that so could either Parent With Care.
The other thing your friend needs to remember is this is a long game, the longest he will ever play. Children are very skilful at seeing through their parents when it comes to this sort of thing and if the ex is being manipulative and telling tales to the child to turn them against him, they will see through it as they become teenagers & adults. In the long term they will likely have a better relationship with him rather than the mother. The lost years cannot be replaced of course, but there is a huge reward for patience now and keeping his eyes on the prize.
Muzzer79 said:
I am by no means a legal expert, but in the limited experience I’ve had, maintenance comes with access.
No it absolutely does not. As others have said in this thread although the two aspects are set out in one order, paying maintenance does not secure access and enabling access does not guarantee maintenance will be paid.Muzzer79 said:
Obviously, a Dad cannot just absolve his responsibilities and choose to pay no maintenance in return for no access.
However, if one does pay, then access should come with it.
The parent paying maintenance should continue to pay regardless of what is happening over access or any other aspect of the agreement. One side breaching their obligations does not allow the other side to breach theirs, and it is far easier to garnish wages than it is to see a child when the Parent With Care doesn't want you to. However, if one does pay, then access should come with it.
Of course, the friend would be within his rights to approach the Child Maintenance Service and get his payments reviewed after 12 months, the codicil being that so could either Parent With Care.
Muzzer79 said:
This ‘injunction’ is key. Not given out lightly. Details required.
Indeed, and it puts your friend in a very tricky position. He should get an appointment at the Citizen's Advice Bureau and look at how he can go about getting supervised visits set up. He needs to keep away from his ex and off Facebook, he needs to be squeaky clean and do things exactly by the book to demonstrate he is a changed man, even if the injunction was gained by the ex being disingenuous. The Dummies Guide to Divorce is also very helpful but he needs the UK edition.The other thing your friend needs to remember is this is a long game, the longest he will ever play. Children are very skilful at seeing through their parents when it comes to this sort of thing and if the ex is being manipulative and telling tales to the child to turn them against him, they will see through it as they become teenagers & adults. In the long term they will likely have a better relationship with him rather than the mother. The lost years cannot be replaced of course, but there is a huge reward for patience now and keeping his eyes on the prize.
An application to court is the best way to resolve this situation, provided that at all times the person is co-operative, honest (especially owning up to any bad behaviour) and above all else focussed solely on what is right for the child(ren).
It's worth saying that no one will ever 'win' into the family court, so don't try and certainly don't try to win against the other party.
Withholding maintenance or doing anything to get back at the other parent is going to be seen for what it really is, childish bad behaviour by adults in conflict (or worse, it could be seen as part of a bigger picture of abusive behaviour).
The only right course of action to figure out what is right for the children (rarely 50/50 - that suits the adults far more than children) and pursue that, even if it isn't what is best for the friend.
The family court can get really tough, especially when parents are locked in conflict. Any hint of domestic abuse will be dealt with robustly, and rightly so. So anyone going into court can only get anywhere if they genuinely are aiming for the child's best interests, not there own.
It's worth saying that no one will ever 'win' into the family court, so don't try and certainly don't try to win against the other party.
Withholding maintenance or doing anything to get back at the other parent is going to be seen for what it really is, childish bad behaviour by adults in conflict (or worse, it could be seen as part of a bigger picture of abusive behaviour).
The only right course of action to figure out what is right for the children (rarely 50/50 - that suits the adults far more than children) and pursue that, even if it isn't what is best for the friend.
The family court can get really tough, especially when parents are locked in conflict. Any hint of domestic abuse will be dealt with robustly, and rightly so. So anyone going into court can only get anywhere if they genuinely are aiming for the child's best interests, not there own.
MikeM6 said:
The only right course of action to figure out what is right for the children (rarely 50/50
Just on that note, I know this thread isn't about me (well my wife). But my wife took her ex to court years ago, basically he wasn't paying any maintenance at all and also wasn't having the kid much, maybe once a month.
So she took him to court, luckily her parents paid, court literally decided 50/50 split so the dad doesn't have to pay maintenance.
They are supposed to split payments for anything 50/50, things like glasses, school uniform etc but over the years the wife has definitely forked out a lot more.
Kid is about to select his options for GCSE, wants to be a "bridge engineer", dad is encouraging him to pick all of the easy options such as Drama, Art and Music rather than Triple Science etc (double is compulsory, triple isnt).
the-norseman said:
MikeM6 said:
The only right course of action to figure out what is right for the children (rarely 50/50
Just on that note, I know this thread isn't about me (well my wife). But my wife took her ex to court years ago, basically he wasn't paying any maintenance at all and also wasn't having the kid much, maybe once a month.
So she took him to court, luckily her parents paid, court literally decided 50/50 split so the dad doesn't have to pay maintenance.
They are supposed to split payments for anything 50/50, things like glasses, school uniform etc but over the years the wife has definitely forked out a lot more.
Kid is about to select his options for GCSE, wants to be a "bridge engineer", dad is encouraging him to pick all of the easy options such as Drama, Art and Music rather than Triple Science etc (double is compulsory, triple isnt).
just reinforces my belief that people (male or female) can really be selfish c*nts!
the-norseman said:
Just on that note, I know this thread isn't about me (well my wife).
But my wife took her ex to court years ago, basically he wasn't paying any maintenance at all and also wasn't having the kid much, maybe once a month.
So she took him to court, luckily her parents paid, court literally decided 50/50 split so the dad doesn't have to pay maintenance.
They are supposed to split payments for anything 50/50, things like glasses, school uniform etc but over the years the wife has definitely forked out a lot more.
Kid is about to select his options for GCSE, wants to be a "bridge engineer", dad is encouraging him to pick all of the easy options such as Drama, Art and Music rather than Triple Science etc (double is compulsory, triple isnt).
I had similar, Ex gave up his job to avoid paying maintenance and did all the usual spiel of what was I spending the money on etc etc totally missing the point that his paltry contribution when he did pay it did not even cover food for our two children let alone anything else which was solely down to me to provide as well as looking after two SEN kids/childcare costs etc because he never saw them. We did far better without him than we did with him and I know that annoys him no end despite me doing everything I could to keep him part of their lives till his emotional abuse had to stop for their sakes.But my wife took her ex to court years ago, basically he wasn't paying any maintenance at all and also wasn't having the kid much, maybe once a month.
So she took him to court, luckily her parents paid, court literally decided 50/50 split so the dad doesn't have to pay maintenance.
They are supposed to split payments for anything 50/50, things like glasses, school uniform etc but over the years the wife has definitely forked out a lot more.
Kid is about to select his options for GCSE, wants to be a "bridge engineer", dad is encouraging him to pick all of the easy options such as Drama, Art and Music rather than Triple Science etc (double is compulsory, triple isnt).
He went on to have more kids with someone else and as far as I understand it they are miserable together but he has nowhere else to go as his whole family have shunned him due to his bad behaviour and he is in a minimum wage job unable to support himself let alone anyone else. Kids are living a total lie thinking they have no other family and all are dead so that will be a real messed up shock for them in years to come.
He texted me this afternoon asking what our 18 year was doing - first time I've heard from him in years as I guess he wants to stop paying his measly £25 a month. Our kid is 19 though! What a d!ck.
the-norseman said:
Hi all, looking for some advice, not for me but a friend (really)
A mate of mine has two kids with two different women, he was with the first woman for a fair few years then they split up, he saw his lad a lot. Then he got with woman 2, Woman 1 refused him access to his lad, his lad is now about 15/16 and he sees him again.
Woman 2 and him had a girl together then split up when she was about 2, she is roughly 4.5 now but turns out shes been refusing access to the girl for 2 years.
My friend works full time and pays maintenance on both kids, never missed a payment, he wants to see both kids. Hes tried talking to Woman 2 face to face, via text etc but shes having none of it, somehow shes managed to get a injunction taken out on him so he cant go near the house etc. I'm not sure why they split up, but he has said there was no violence etc. Bloke hardly drinks, certainly no drugs involved.
Bloke has no criminal record or anything, never been in trouble at all, hes put a bit of a desperate post out on Facebook tonight saying can anybody help as hes at a loss how to handle it now, she doesn't work so shes told him "see you in court" as she knows shes not gotta pay for it. He's basically said I cant afford circa 20k to take her to court.
I'm pretty sure he would get awarded 50/50 if it did go to court (my wife took her ex to court and they ended up with 50/50).
First thing I thought of is stop paying the maintenance, let her take you to court and then tell the court why you have stopped, but I'm pretty sure her side would use that against him.
Anybody been in this situation have any advice?
He needs legal advice. Not second hand advice from a car forum on the internet. Budget £2k. If it gets messy that will be nearer £10k. A mate of mine has two kids with two different women, he was with the first woman for a fair few years then they split up, he saw his lad a lot. Then he got with woman 2, Woman 1 refused him access to his lad, his lad is now about 15/16 and he sees him again.
Woman 2 and him had a girl together then split up when she was about 2, she is roughly 4.5 now but turns out shes been refusing access to the girl for 2 years.
My friend works full time and pays maintenance on both kids, never missed a payment, he wants to see both kids. Hes tried talking to Woman 2 face to face, via text etc but shes having none of it, somehow shes managed to get a injunction taken out on him so he cant go near the house etc. I'm not sure why they split up, but he has said there was no violence etc. Bloke hardly drinks, certainly no drugs involved.
Bloke has no criminal record or anything, never been in trouble at all, hes put a bit of a desperate post out on Facebook tonight saying can anybody help as hes at a loss how to handle it now, she doesn't work so shes told him "see you in court" as she knows shes not gotta pay for it. He's basically said I cant afford circa 20k to take her to court.
I'm pretty sure he would get awarded 50/50 if it did go to court (my wife took her ex to court and they ended up with 50/50).
First thing I thought of is stop paying the maintenance, let her take you to court and then tell the court why you have stopped, but I'm pretty sure her side would use that against him.
Anybody been in this situation have any advice?
Ruskie said:
the-norseman said:
Hi all, looking for some advice, not for me but a friend (really)
A mate of mine has two kids with two different women, he was with the first woman for a fair few years then they split up, he saw his lad a lot. Then he got with woman 2, Woman 1 refused him access to his lad, his lad is now about 15/16 and he sees him again.
Woman 2 and him had a girl together then split up when she was about 2, she is roughly 4.5 now but turns out shes been refusing access to the girl for 2 years.
My friend works full time and pays maintenance on both kids, never missed a payment, he wants to see both kids. Hes tried talking to Woman 2 face to face, via text etc but shes having none of it, somehow shes managed to get a injunction taken out on him so he cant go near the house etc. I'm not sure why they split up, but he has said there was no violence etc. Bloke hardly drinks, certainly no drugs involved.
Bloke has no criminal record or anything, never been in trouble at all, hes put a bit of a desperate post out on Facebook tonight saying can anybody help as hes at a loss how to handle it now, she doesn't work so shes told him "see you in court" as she knows shes not gotta pay for it. He's basically said I cant afford circa 20k to take her to court.
I'm pretty sure he would get awarded 50/50 if it did go to court (my wife took her ex to court and they ended up with 50/50).
First thing I thought of is stop paying the maintenance, let her take you to court and then tell the court why you have stopped, but I'm pretty sure her side would use that against him.
Anybody been in this situation have any advice?
He needs legal advice. Not second hand advice from a car forum on the internet. Budget £2k. If it gets messy that will be nearer £10k. A mate of mine has two kids with two different women, he was with the first woman for a fair few years then they split up, he saw his lad a lot. Then he got with woman 2, Woman 1 refused him access to his lad, his lad is now about 15/16 and he sees him again.
Woman 2 and him had a girl together then split up when she was about 2, she is roughly 4.5 now but turns out shes been refusing access to the girl for 2 years.
My friend works full time and pays maintenance on both kids, never missed a payment, he wants to see both kids. Hes tried talking to Woman 2 face to face, via text etc but shes having none of it, somehow shes managed to get a injunction taken out on him so he cant go near the house etc. I'm not sure why they split up, but he has said there was no violence etc. Bloke hardly drinks, certainly no drugs involved.
Bloke has no criminal record or anything, never been in trouble at all, hes put a bit of a desperate post out on Facebook tonight saying can anybody help as hes at a loss how to handle it now, she doesn't work so shes told him "see you in court" as she knows shes not gotta pay for it. He's basically said I cant afford circa 20k to take her to court.
I'm pretty sure he would get awarded 50/50 if it did go to court (my wife took her ex to court and they ended up with 50/50).
First thing I thought of is stop paying the maintenance, let her take you to court and then tell the court why you have stopped, but I'm pretty sure her side would use that against him.
Anybody been in this situation have any advice?
First of all he needs the Family Division to do its job. The rights of the child to have meaningful contact with BOTH parents.
Secondly add a zero to your initial £2K and then work up from that.
Thirdly your "second hand advice" is actually "real world" experiences. My 50+ years on this planet have demonstrated to me that "real world" experiences trumps so called advice any day. The contributors above have explained what they thought should have happened based on understanding the law only for the legal profession to do nothing in the face of selfish people.
Greenmantle said:
Ruskie said:
the-norseman said:
Hi all, looking for some advice, not for me but a friend (really)
A mate of mine has two kids with two different women, he was with the first woman for a fair few years then they split up, he saw his lad a lot. Then he got with woman 2, Woman 1 refused him access to his lad, his lad is now about 15/16 and he sees him again.
Woman 2 and him had a girl together then split up when she was about 2, she is roughly 4.5 now but turns out shes been refusing access to the girl for 2 years.
My friend works full time and pays maintenance on both kids, never missed a payment, he wants to see both kids. Hes tried talking to Woman 2 face to face, via text etc but shes having none of it, somehow shes managed to get a injunction taken out on him so he cant go near the house etc. I'm not sure why they split up, but he has said there was no violence etc. Bloke hardly drinks, certainly no drugs involved.
Bloke has no criminal record or anything, never been in trouble at all, hes put a bit of a desperate post out on Facebook tonight saying can anybody help as hes at a loss how to handle it now, she doesn't work so shes told him "see you in court" as she knows shes not gotta pay for it. He's basically said I cant afford circa 20k to take her to court.
I'm pretty sure he would get awarded 50/50 if it did go to court (my wife took her ex to court and they ended up with 50/50).
First thing I thought of is stop paying the maintenance, let her take you to court and then tell the court why you have stopped, but I'm pretty sure her side would use that against him.
Anybody been in this situation have any advice?
He needs legal advice. Not second hand advice from a car forum on the internet. Budget £2k. If it gets messy that will be nearer £10k. A mate of mine has two kids with two different women, he was with the first woman for a fair few years then they split up, he saw his lad a lot. Then he got with woman 2, Woman 1 refused him access to his lad, his lad is now about 15/16 and he sees him again.
Woman 2 and him had a girl together then split up when she was about 2, she is roughly 4.5 now but turns out shes been refusing access to the girl for 2 years.
My friend works full time and pays maintenance on both kids, never missed a payment, he wants to see both kids. Hes tried talking to Woman 2 face to face, via text etc but shes having none of it, somehow shes managed to get a injunction taken out on him so he cant go near the house etc. I'm not sure why they split up, but he has said there was no violence etc. Bloke hardly drinks, certainly no drugs involved.
Bloke has no criminal record or anything, never been in trouble at all, hes put a bit of a desperate post out on Facebook tonight saying can anybody help as hes at a loss how to handle it now, she doesn't work so shes told him "see you in court" as she knows shes not gotta pay for it. He's basically said I cant afford circa 20k to take her to court.
I'm pretty sure he would get awarded 50/50 if it did go to court (my wife took her ex to court and they ended up with 50/50).
First thing I thought of is stop paying the maintenance, let her take you to court and then tell the court why you have stopped, but I'm pretty sure her side would use that against him.
Anybody been in this situation have any advice?
First of all he needs the Family Division to do its job. The rights of the child to have meaningful contact with BOTH parents.
Secondly add a zero to your initial £2K and then work up from that.
Thirdly your "second hand advice" is actually "real world" experiences. My 50+ years on this planet have demonstrated to me that "real world" experiences trumps so called advice any day. The contributors above have explained what they thought should have happened based on understanding the law only for the legal profession to do nothing in the face of selfish people.
t what you think TBH. You sound very bitter and it’s clearly clouding your judgement. Hope that clears things up a bit for you. vaud said:
Ruskie said:
I don’t really give a st what you think TBH. You sound very bitter and it’s clearly clouding your judgement. Hope that clears things up a bit for you.
I think he is probably right on the legal costs though. £2k wont get you much.t what you think TBH. You sound very bitter and it’s clearly clouding your judgement. Hope that clears things up a bit for you. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff