Definition of a car park
Discussion
Could anyone shed some light on this, going to keep some of the info light just in case
I am part of a club and we rent a field to do an activity in it, members of the club park their car in said field, so a morning would be
Arrive open gate
Set up activity
Members arrive
Gate is then closed to the field.
Activity goes ahead, we finish, leave close gate
Now, a few months back a car was damaged by an errant object from the activity, we offered a PDR guy to come out,the owner refused and decided to go through our insurance to claim to quite a sum of money (that exceeded the value of the car), anyway the repair by the approved body shop is awful and he's moaning that his car has lost a considerable amount of resale value, which roughly makes his car worth £1000 by my estimations but that is a side note.
He has now sought legal advice about the field and how it is a "Car park" and therefore we should have to put in marked bays, walkways and other rubbish as we are confident this isn't the end of this and may look to recoup losses, which to be honest he will be told where to go, now he is adamant that this field is a car park, there is no planning permission for it to be a car park, the gate is closed and there is no public access.
We are going to be drafting up a waiver for everyone to sign, despite the signs in the field saying we accept no liability, does anyone know where we would stand with doing this? The insurance claim only got through as he insisted it was a car park.
I would like to say the option could be to tell him to never come back and bar him, but he is old and wise and I am sure he would find some sort of way of getting back at us for it, which would mean the club would have to fold as we a charitable based club and we couldn't afford to fight anything.
I guess in summary, is a locked field that you park your car in classed legally as a car park, if it has no planning permission or rights to be a car park?
I am part of a club and we rent a field to do an activity in it, members of the club park their car in said field, so a morning would be
Arrive open gate
Set up activity
Members arrive
Gate is then closed to the field.
Activity goes ahead, we finish, leave close gate
Now, a few months back a car was damaged by an errant object from the activity, we offered a PDR guy to come out,the owner refused and decided to go through our insurance to claim to quite a sum of money (that exceeded the value of the car), anyway the repair by the approved body shop is awful and he's moaning that his car has lost a considerable amount of resale value, which roughly makes his car worth £1000 by my estimations but that is a side note.
He has now sought legal advice about the field and how it is a "Car park" and therefore we should have to put in marked bays, walkways and other rubbish as we are confident this isn't the end of this and may look to recoup losses, which to be honest he will be told where to go, now he is adamant that this field is a car park, there is no planning permission for it to be a car park, the gate is closed and there is no public access.
We are going to be drafting up a waiver for everyone to sign, despite the signs in the field saying we accept no liability, does anyone know where we would stand with doing this? The insurance claim only got through as he insisted it was a car park.
I would like to say the option could be to tell him to never come back and bar him, but he is old and wise and I am sure he would find some sort of way of getting back at us for it, which would mean the club would have to fold as we a charitable based club and we couldn't afford to fight anything.
I guess in summary, is a locked field that you park your car in classed legally as a car park, if it has no planning permission or rights to be a car park?
You’ve mentioned that you have insurance as a club. Surely they are best placed to give advice (via their legal / underwriting side) and / or make precise stipulations on what is / isn’t covered and what they expect you to do to mitigate any risk of a claim / ensure coverage applies.
I doubt anyone will be able to precisely define what is and isn’t a car park. Even if they did, would it apply to your specific circumstances or be the answer that you want to hear?
I doubt anyone will be able to precisely define what is and isn’t a car park. Even if they did, would it apply to your specific circumstances or be the answer that you want to hear?
rhamnousia5 said:
You’ve mentioned that you have insurance as a club. Surely they are best placed to give advice (via their legal / underwriting side) and / or make precise stipulations on what is / isn’t covered and what they expect you to do to mitigate any risk of a claim / ensure coverage applies.
I doubt anyone will be able to precisely define what is and isn’t a car park. Even if they did, would it apply to your specific circumstances or be the answer that you want to hear?
At the moment I don't have the full details, as our club secretary just doesn't turn up anymore or keep anyone in the loop, I will be taking over as club secretary soon and will be more informed of what's what, however I believe the insurance is merely cover injuries and public liability.I doubt anyone will be able to precisely define what is and isn’t a car park. Even if they did, would it apply to your specific circumstances or be the answer that you want to hear?
For instance if it was RC plane club, we would be covered if one of those planes hit someone but not personal property, it is why most of us have our own private insurance through an association, but we are all well aware that there is a potential of something going wrong and damage happening to our vehicles, I would point out on the day that happened the person in question did park his car in a stupid place, nobody else has ever had any damage to their property from the club or the activity.
I believe he managed to play the system and argue a case with threats of legal action against the insurance company if they didn't pay out, and I am not sure it was worth it for the insurance company to fight it, I will hopefully be brought up to speed on exactly what happened when I take over, which is the same time this waiver will be going out so I am just looking to cover our arses and get our ducks all in a row before this.
From what I understand for land to be used as a car park it must have planning permission to do so, I have been searching law sites for any info a car but can't find a true definition
48k said:
Model aircraft club and someone's model has dropped out of the sky and hit the car? Any third party insurance held by the flyer?
Let's just say yes, an errant flying object set up by the club made contact with the car, and yes we all have our own third party insurance, but in my opinion he's a tight b
d and wouldn't claim on his own insurance, he argued against a £2 cost rise for using the field with us, from £13 ro £15.not a lawyer so here my common sense take.
It's not a car park, it's primary usage is a field. The fact you all choose to park in the area hired for your activity shouldn't make it a car park unless you've given instruction. I would expect he's never been given guidance on parking that states you can or cannot park in the field and has just gone with the masses, choosing to park his car near to the activity which has the potential to cause damage.
Unfortunately the answer may well be you need to ban parking in the field due to this gentlemans stupidity and or rent another field to park that's away from the activity.
It's not a car park, it's primary usage is a field. The fact you all choose to park in the area hired for your activity shouldn't make it a car park unless you've given instruction. I would expect he's never been given guidance on parking that states you can or cannot park in the field and has just gone with the masses, choosing to park his car near to the activity which has the potential to cause damage.
Unfortunately the answer may well be you need to ban parking in the field due to this gentlemans stupidity and or rent another field to park that's away from the activity.
Two points regarding the repeir.
1. The old boy was right not to accept a PDR if the damage was for a large horizontal panel. It would never look right.
2. If the repair from the authorised body shop (which he chose to use) is crap, he should go back to them. It’s not your problem now.
I would tell him to FRO regardless. He will be forever a pain in your arse.
1. The old boy was right not to accept a PDR if the damage was for a large horizontal panel. It would never look right.
2. If the repair from the authorised body shop (which he chose to use) is crap, he should go back to them. It’s not your problem now.
I would tell him to FRO regardless. He will be forever a pain in your arse.
Just because a few people park their cars in the same area doesn’t make it an official car park. It must have to be officially designated as such. Plus there are plenty of proper car parks that don’t have marked bays. fRO is the correct answer.
Car parks used to be a grey area for insurance purposes but they no have the same rules as the roads so you need a licence, insurance etc. You can no longer take your 12 year old for a driving lesson on B&Q’s car park after hours on a Sunday without breaking the law.
Car parks used to be a grey area for insurance purposes but they no have the same rules as the roads so you need a licence, insurance etc. You can no longer take your 12 year old for a driving lesson on B&Q’s car park after hours on a Sunday without breaking the law.
pits said:
rhamnousia5 said:
You’ve mentioned that you have insurance as a club. Surely they are best placed to give advice (via their legal / underwriting side) and / or make precise stipulations on what is / isn’t covered and what they expect you to do to mitigate any risk of a claim / ensure coverage applies.
I doubt anyone will be able to precisely define what is and isn’t a car park. Even if they did, would it apply to your specific circumstances or be the answer that you want to hear?
At the moment I don't have the full details, as our club secretary just doesn't turn up anymore or keep anyone in the loop, I will be taking over as club secretary soon and will be more informed of what's what, however I believe the insurance is merely cover injuries and public liability.I doubt anyone will be able to precisely define what is and isn’t a car park. Even if they did, would it apply to your specific circumstances or be the answer that you want to hear?
For instance if it was RC plane club, we would be covered if one of those planes hit someone but not personal property, it is why most of us have our own private insurance through an association, but we are all well aware that there is a potential of something going wrong and damage happening to our vehicles, I would point out on the day that happened the person in question did park his car in a stupid place, nobody else has ever had any damage to their property from the club or the activity.
I believe he managed to play the system and argue a case with threats of legal action against the insurance company if they didn't pay out, and I am not sure it was worth it for the insurance company to fight it, I will hopefully be brought up to speed on exactly what happened when I take over, which is the same time this waiver will be going out so I am just looking to cover our arses and get our ducks all in a row before this.
From what I understand for land to be used as a car park it must have planning permission to do so, I have been searching law sites for any info a car but can't find a true definition
In any case, if he has claimed off your insurance initially, then that’s where any subsequent claim should be directed. That’s it really. You don’t have to prove or fight anything as it’s your insurance that will be paying. They’re better prepared for arguing this sort of stuff and / or deciding when it’s cheaper to just pay someone to FRO. As much as others on here are giving their opinions, those opinions don’t seem to be backed up by much more than an emotional reaction and could cause you to lose a winning case, or cost more on a losing case.
I’m not sure what difference it makes whether it’s a car park or not. If I parked on your front garden (without permission) then you’d still be legally liable if something you were in control of damaged my car while it was parked there without permission. That may be unfair, but it’s how the law works.
pits said:
Now, a few months back a car was damaged by an errant object from the activity, we offered a PDR guy to come out, the owner refused and decided to go through our insurance to claim to quite a sum of money (that exceeded the value of the car), anyway the repair by the approved body shop is awful and he's moaning that his car has lost a considerable amount of resale value
Tell him to FRO and talk to the Bodyshop and/or the insurer. End of discussion. My sports club parks on an area of field.
There are no bays or lines.
It is not open to the public.
Lots of NT car parks which are open to the public have no bays or lines, particularly in the overflow areas.
I don't think 'car park' is a significant category of land, you have 'public' areas where the public may drive, including car parks, and you have private.
Is your drive a car park?
How many parking spaces constitute a car park?
The club or landowners insurance might need to know if members or the public are driving on the land they are insuring though.
I'd consult with a proper lawyer, because I suspect if you take your car into an area which isn't public and there's a sporting activity taking place, then you may be assuming the risk yourself, if the sportsmen are not negligent? A properly constituted club would probably have the members indemnify the club, so you'd claim on your own car's fully comp insurance. And/or each sportsman might be required to keep his own TP insurance.
I'm sure it's not an original situation, things being hit with golf balls and the like.
There are small incidents which can be glossed over among friends/members, everything else is what we pay insurers for.
But clubs need to be properly insured!
It can also help if your sport's 'national authority' advises you and has access to the right lawyers.
But of course that tends to come with an affiliation fee and various luggage.
Some national authorities include a level of TP insurance in some categories of personal membership.
It gets shakier when the 'club' is not a properly constituted entity like a golf club, but just a bunch of people who meet and have a Facebook group.
You get some rebels without a clue who disdain the national authority and don't realise they are setting themselves up to be liable for stuff.
If anyone is making a profit, it gets murkier!
HTH?
There are no bays or lines.
It is not open to the public.
Lots of NT car parks which are open to the public have no bays or lines, particularly in the overflow areas.
I don't think 'car park' is a significant category of land, you have 'public' areas where the public may drive, including car parks, and you have private.
Is your drive a car park?
How many parking spaces constitute a car park?
The club or landowners insurance might need to know if members or the public are driving on the land they are insuring though.
I'd consult with a proper lawyer, because I suspect if you take your car into an area which isn't public and there's a sporting activity taking place, then you may be assuming the risk yourself, if the sportsmen are not negligent? A properly constituted club would probably have the members indemnify the club, so you'd claim on your own car's fully comp insurance. And/or each sportsman might be required to keep his own TP insurance.
I'm sure it's not an original situation, things being hit with golf balls and the like.
There are small incidents which can be glossed over among friends/members, everything else is what we pay insurers for.
But clubs need to be properly insured!
It can also help if your sport's 'national authority' advises you and has access to the right lawyers.
But of course that tends to come with an affiliation fee and various luggage.
Some national authorities include a level of TP insurance in some categories of personal membership.
It gets shakier when the 'club' is not a properly constituted entity like a golf club, but just a bunch of people who meet and have a Facebook group.
You get some rebels without a clue who disdain the national authority and don't realise they are setting themselves up to be liable for stuff.
If anyone is making a profit, it gets murkier!
HTH?
Simon_GH said:
Car parks used to be a grey area for insurance purposes but they no have the same rules as the roads so you need a licence, insurance etc. You can no longer take your 12 year old for a driving lesson on B&Q’s car park after hours on a Sunday without breaking the law.
Only if it's a public place or it's used by the general public. That would be true of a B&Q car park, but not a car park that's used only by a few members of a small private club.Shooter McGavin said:
pits said:
Now, a few months back a car was damaged by an errant object from the activity, we offered a PDR guy to come out, the owner refused and decided to go through our insurance to claim to quite a sum of money (that exceeded the value of the car), anyway the repair by the approved body shop is awful and he's moaning that his car has lost a considerable amount of resale value
Tell him to FRO and talk to the Bodyshop and/or the insurer. End of discussion. From somebody who is a secretary of one club and the H&S advisor to another group. Whatever the outcome of this you need to have a serious look at what you are doing. For a start you need to establish, who actually has liability, for what happens on that field. In other words what is the agreement between your club and the land owner. From that you need to look at what your insurance company does and doesn't cover. There is so much more I could say but at the moment I haven't got the time.
In simple terms a car park is a place where people park their cars. I don't think it's a legal term as such so I'm not sure that it has a more specific legal definition than that or why it would need one.
Obviously there are some specific types of car park which have a more precise definition, like a place subject to an off street parking place order. It's unlikely that your field would meet the definition of any of those.
OTOH the club, or the members of the club, is still going to have some duty of care to people whose cars are parked near where to you are flying your planes or whatever you're doing, and that duty of care will be somewhat greater if they have parked there with the clubs agreement or encouragement. I suspect that will have been a much bigger factor in the industry but of liability than whether you have a sign on the gate that says "car park".
In any event if your insurers have dealt with his claim then if he's come back for more the correct response is to point him back towards your insurers.
Why in earth is he banging on about white lines on the tarmac? That's completely irrelevant to his claim - unless he is somehow arguing that white lines would somehow have stopped the model aircraft hitting his car?
Obviously there are some specific types of car park which have a more precise definition, like a place subject to an off street parking place order. It's unlikely that your field would meet the definition of any of those.
OTOH the club, or the members of the club, is still going to have some duty of care to people whose cars are parked near where to you are flying your planes or whatever you're doing, and that duty of care will be somewhat greater if they have parked there with the clubs agreement or encouragement. I suspect that will have been a much bigger factor in the industry but of liability than whether you have a sign on the gate that says "car park".
In any event if your insurers have dealt with his claim then if he's come back for more the correct response is to point him back towards your insurers.
Why in earth is he banging on about white lines on the tarmac? That's completely irrelevant to his claim - unless he is somehow arguing that white lines would somehow have stopped the model aircraft hitting his car?
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