Double flashed in 10 mins with zero points - Options?

[Bammito]

Long time lurker infrequent poster,

I've received two Intention to Prosecute letters for doing 80 on the M6, both within 10 mins but from different Police forces (Warwickshire and West Midlands). I have a clean license.

I've confirmed I was the driver for both, but what I'm wondering is what the process would be for arguing it should be classed as a single trip and thus meriting only one punishment - accept the first (assuming speed awareness course) then not guilty to the second? Email both forces and ask for the later offence to be binned (in a slightly more eloquent manner)?

Thanks all

[paul_c123]

Did you slow down to below 80 in between the two locatins?

[Sebring440]

Bammito said:

I have a clean license.

You used to have a clean licence.

[bus_ter]

It doesn't matter that it was a single trip. You've been done twice unfortunately.

If you're very lucky you'll get 2 courses, one from each police force, and no points.

[martinbiz]

paul_c123 said:

Did you slow down to below 80 in between the two locatins?

Your point is?

[martinbiz]

bus_ter said:

It doesn't matter that it was a single trip. You've been done twice unfortunately.

If you're very lucky you'll get 2 courses, one from each police force, and no points.

Wrong

[E-bmw]

martinbiz said:

paul_c123 said:

Did you slow down to below 80 in between the two locatins?

Your point is?

I am going to guess that if you were to look at the timings & could prove that you didn't slow down in between then it could more easily be argued that it was one speeding event.

If however the timings show that you were (for argument's sake) doing 60 between them, then that would be less likely to succeed.

Just guessing.

[Bammito]

Cheers for responses so far.

I was sat on cruise control in pretty empty traffic so it's unlikely to have dipped down during that time.

And yes, I *used* to have a clean license - for almost 20 years! I've been relaxed about my adherence to motorway speed limits that whole time so can't feel too sorry for myself for finally getting some comeuppance

[bus_ter]

martinbiz said:

Wrong

Care to elaborate on which part?

I believe two separate offences on the same journey still count as two offences, especially as they're reasonably geographically split.

2nd part, when each constabulary pulls up the license they'll see no recorded offences (3 days to process) and may pass through to the course, if he's very very lucky. They'll go through two separate booking centres at different locations. Possibly they have a system in place to catch this.

[Solocle]

bus_ter said:

Care to elaborate on which part?

I believe two separate offences on the same journey still count as two offences, especially as they're reasonably geographically split.

2nd part, when each constabulary pulls up the license they'll see no recorded offences (3 days to process) and may pass through to the course, if he's very very lucky. They'll go through two separate booking centres at different locations. Possibly they have a system in place to catch this.

There is legislation on this matter.

Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 § 28

Part 4 said:

Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).

Part 5
In a case where (apart from this subsection) subsection (4) above would apply to two or more offences, the court may if it thinks fit determine that that subsection shall not apply to the offences (or, where three or more offences are concerned, to any one or more of them).

The issue here is that it's a matter for a court to decide.

Up to OP whether it's worth the hassle to get 3 points, as opposed to 3 points + SAC, and potentially end up with a worse outcome.

However, if the timings of the cameras indicate that it was an 80 mph cruise, it should generally count as the same occasion.

[bus_ter]

Solocle said:

The issue here is that it's a matter for a court to decide.

Up to OP whether it's worth the hassle to get 3 points, as opposed to 3 points + SAC, and potentially end up with a worse outcome.

However, if the timings of the cameras indicate that it was an 80 mph cruise, it should generally count as the same occasion.

That's good news for the OP. He may still get away without any points (just doing the course as he has a clean license)

[Solocle]

bus_ter said:

That's good news for the OP. He may still get away without any points (just doing the course as he has a clean license)

Thing is if you go to court you've refused the SAC. What it might achieve is retaining eligibility for the SAC in future, and only 1x fine.

[BlimeyCharlie]

Solocle said:

bus_ter said:

Care to elaborate on which part?

I believe two separate offences on the same journey still count as two offences, especially as they're reasonably geographically split.

2nd part, when each constabulary pulls up the license they'll see no recorded offences (3 days to process) and may pass through to the course, if he's very very lucky. They'll go through two separate booking centres at different locations. Possibly they have a system in place to catch this.

There is legislation on this matter.

Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 § 28

Part 4 said:

Where a person is convicted (whether on the same occasion or not) of two or more offences committed on the same occasion and involving obligatory endorsement, the total number of penalty points to be attributed to them is the number or highest number that would be attributed on a conviction of one of them (so that if the convictions are on different occasions the number of penalty points to be attributed to the offences on the later occasion or occasions shall be restricted accordingly).

Part 5
In a case where (apart from this subsection) subsection (4) above would apply to two or more offences, the court may if it thinks fit determine that that subsection shall not apply to the offences (or, where three or more offences are concerned, to any one or more of them).

The issue here is that it's a matter for a court to decide.

Up to OP whether it's worth the hassle to get 3 points, as opposed to 3 points + SAC, and potentially end up with a worse outcome.

However, if the timings of the cameras indicate that it was an 80 mph cruise, it should generally count as the same occasion.

Why would you 'argue' you drove for approx' 12/13 miles, which is 80mph for 10 minutes), along with confirming you set the Cruise Control for 80mph, therefore a deliberate act?
Surely you are incriminating yourself further?
The cameras were not average speed cameras, not that that is relevant.

If you collided with 2 seperate vehicles, several miles apart, it wouldn't be classed as the same collision.

What if the distance between the cameras, for whatever reason, shows you averaged 90mph between them?

Can you take x2 courses? Is that an option for you, by reading either/both letters?
If so, I'd get them both booked asap, and consider myself lucky.

I got into 'trouble' a few years back, and decided I could argue certain aspects, but also that it could have been a lot worse, along with generally looking at it as time to change how I drove.

A SAC made me realise I needed to change bad habits, so I'm no Saint, just trying to help from recent experience.

[BertBert]

It strikes me that to achieve the desired outcome - one SAC out of the 2 NIPs is a pretty technical task needing the advice of a skilled lawyer - if it's even possible. Likely best outcome, one lot of 3 points and a SAC available for a future transgression.

A DIY approach could well end up with 2 lots of 3 points.

Left to its own devices the likely outcome is 3 pts and a SAC.

So either employ a good lawyer or leave it to runs its course (as it were).

[Solocle]

BlimeyCharlie said:

Why would you 'argue' you drove for approx' 12/13 miles, which is 80mph for 10 minutes), along with confirming you set the Cruise Control for 80mph, therefore a deliberate act?
Surely you are incriminating yourself further?
The cameras were not average speed cameras, not that that is relevant.

If you collided with 2 seperate vehicles, several miles apart, it wouldn't be classed as the same collision.

What if the distance between the cameras, for whatever reason, shows you averaged 90mph between them?

Can you take x2 courses? Is that an option for you, by reading either/both letters?
If so, I'd get them both booked asap, and consider myself lucky.

I got into 'trouble' a few years back, and decided I could argue certain aspects, but also that it could have been a lot worse, along with generally looking at it as time to change how I drove.

A SAC made me realise I needed to change bad habits, so I'm no Saint, just trying to help from recent experience.

You're not incriminating yourself any more than pleading guilty.

I'm just pointing out that from a legal standpoint, it's one prolonged offence. But the penalty is still 3 points.

Judges do have latitude to treat the two separately... but there's clearly a threshold. Because the camera itself takes two photos, you're speeding in both of them. That's not two offences, though.