Scottish Outdoor Access Code- shooting question
Discussion
Hi, I'm wondering if anyone here is knowledgeable about the Scottish Outdoor Access Code ( right to roam).
Neighbouring forest land to ours is let out for deer stalking. The deer are wild and can freely cross between our land and the neighbours. They tend to shelter in the forest overnight then cross to our open (and good grazing ) land to graze at dawn,crossing back into the forest at dusk.
Our neighbour has a regular client who takes advantage of this. He and his companions walk across our fields chasing the deer into the forest then cross the fence, get out their guns and wait to catch the deer as they re-emerge from the forest.
I've asked him not to do this but he simply asserts it as his right under the SOAC. I've argued that as he is doing this as part of his shooting operation the SOAC doesn't apply but he claims that as long as he isn't shooting on our land then his "walk" across our land is perfectly innocent and a protected right.
Can anyone advise?
Neighbouring forest land to ours is let out for deer stalking. The deer are wild and can freely cross between our land and the neighbours. They tend to shelter in the forest overnight then cross to our open (and good grazing ) land to graze at dawn,crossing back into the forest at dusk.
Our neighbour has a regular client who takes advantage of this. He and his companions walk across our fields chasing the deer into the forest then cross the fence, get out their guns and wait to catch the deer as they re-emerge from the forest.
I've asked him not to do this but he simply asserts it as his right under the SOAC. I've argued that as he is doing this as part of his shooting operation the SOAC doesn't apply but he claims that as long as he isn't shooting on our land then his "walk" across our land is perfectly innocent and a protected right.
Can anyone advise?
Dan_The_Man said:
They would appear to be within the law:
Firearm Exception:
Section 2.12 of the SOAC explicitly states that the carrying of a firearm is excluded, with the exception of situations where it is being crossed to immediately access or return from land where shooting rights are granted.
Yes, thatsy their argument but they aren't using our land to directly access theirs, they are leaving theirs, walking across ours , "beating" as they go then returning to theirs.Firearm Exception:
Section 2.12 of the SOAC explicitly states that the carrying of a firearm is excluded, with the exception of situations where it is being crossed to immediately access or return from land where shooting rights are granted.
I have no idea. My guess would be that they are not entitled to access to beat deer towards their land.
Perhaps this forum might get you a more inforned answer?
https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/forums/lega...
Perhaps this forum might get you a more inforned answer?
https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/forums/lega...
Desiderata said:
Hi, I'm wondering if anyone here is knowledgeable about the Scottish Outdoor Access Code ( right to roam).
Neighbouring forest land to ours is let out for deer stalking. The deer are wild and can freely cross between our land and the neighbours. They tend to shelter in the forest overnight then cross to our open (and good grazing ) land to graze at dawn,crossing back into the forest at dusk.
Our neighbour has a regular client who takes advantage of this. He and his companions walk across our fields chasing the deer into the forest then cross the fence, get out their guns and wait to catch the deer as they re-emerge from the forest.
I've asked him not to do this but he simply asserts it as his right under the SOAC. I've argued that as he is doing this as part of his shooting operation the SOAC doesn't apply but he claims that as long as he isn't shooting on our land then his "walk" across our land is perfectly innocent and a protected right.
Can anyone advise?
The usual advice with neighbour disputes is to try & avoid them, have a proper chat with them & find out what/why they’re doing & likely frequency.Neighbouring forest land to ours is let out for deer stalking. The deer are wild and can freely cross between our land and the neighbours. They tend to shelter in the forest overnight then cross to our open (and good grazing ) land to graze at dawn,crossing back into the forest at dusk.
Our neighbour has a regular client who takes advantage of this. He and his companions walk across our fields chasing the deer into the forest then cross the fence, get out their guns and wait to catch the deer as they re-emerge from the forest.
I've asked him not to do this but he simply asserts it as his right under the SOAC. I've argued that as he is doing this as part of his shooting operation the SOAC doesn't apply but he claims that as long as he isn't shooting on our land then his "walk" across our land is perfectly innocent and a protected right.
Can anyone advise?
“Stalking” (see what I did there) your profile last month you had a post about how you’ve recently moved to a new house with 20acres, so how frequently is this actually happening - (it may be seasonal). The guns I know would generally respect local boundary wishes unless they had to cross for access (considering wind direction & concealment as deer are shot using stealth as they are very easily spooked.
Presently in a lot of areas deer need to be managed as their populations are swelling (that’s even potentially forced on landowners).
Do you hear shots & see them carrying out deer (if so how many of each & do you know what type of deer)
Edited by AndyAudi on Wednesday 21st May 15:39
This is unlikely to be in breach of the SOAC, as the Guns are correctly only shooting on land over which they have permission. There is a provision in the SOAC in 2.14 to disallow access for the purposes of;
• Being on or crossing land or water for the purpose of taking
away, for commercial purposes or for profit, anything in or
on the land or water (for example, mushrooms or berries
picked for commercial use, or gravel and stones).
But here, the burden of proof would be that the deer were being collected for commercial purposes. That will be very difficult to prove when deer are considered the pest species that they are, with endeavours by Nature Scot to actively reduce deer numbers for conservation purposes. In this case, even if the deer carcasses were "sold" by the Guns to a game dealer, then this is probably viewed as a secondary activity, after deer control, which would be considered the primary activity. There is also the argument that herding the deer from one area to another does not constitute "taking away for commercial purposes" That only happens after they have been culled. The test here being that a live deer on the forest land is no more commercially viable than a live deer on your land, on the basis that it could "run away" from the forestry land and still be commercially worthless. It only attains a commercial value when it is converted into a carcass. And if you have ever tried disposing of a deer carcass to a game dealer for a profit, you will know that is a futile exercise!
As a previous poster mentions, if you have recently moved to the country, or at the very least, to this address, then get familiar with country ways, or the ways of this location. As a shooter myself, I am very mindful of the image portrayed to neighbouring landowners. But whilst every endeavour is made to limit any distress, there are things that are done in the country, completely legally and out of necessity, that are not to everyone's taste.
Above all, I re-iterate the point of a previous poster. Speak to your neighbours and their clients in a pro-active, civil and even friendly manner. Discuss your concerns and listen to their views amicably and with a view to a mutual agreement. Avoid confrontation at all costs, and you are more likely to reach some kind of agreement.
• Being on or crossing land or water for the purpose of taking
away, for commercial purposes or for profit, anything in or
on the land or water (for example, mushrooms or berries
picked for commercial use, or gravel and stones).
But here, the burden of proof would be that the deer were being collected for commercial purposes. That will be very difficult to prove when deer are considered the pest species that they are, with endeavours by Nature Scot to actively reduce deer numbers for conservation purposes. In this case, even if the deer carcasses were "sold" by the Guns to a game dealer, then this is probably viewed as a secondary activity, after deer control, which would be considered the primary activity. There is also the argument that herding the deer from one area to another does not constitute "taking away for commercial purposes" That only happens after they have been culled. The test here being that a live deer on the forest land is no more commercially viable than a live deer on your land, on the basis that it could "run away" from the forestry land and still be commercially worthless. It only attains a commercial value when it is converted into a carcass. And if you have ever tried disposing of a deer carcass to a game dealer for a profit, you will know that is a futile exercise!
As a previous poster mentions, if you have recently moved to the country, or at the very least, to this address, then get familiar with country ways, or the ways of this location. As a shooter myself, I am very mindful of the image portrayed to neighbouring landowners. But whilst every endeavour is made to limit any distress, there are things that are done in the country, completely legally and out of necessity, that are not to everyone's taste.
Above all, I re-iterate the point of a previous poster. Speak to your neighbours and their clients in a pro-active, civil and even friendly manner. Discuss your concerns and listen to their views amicably and with a view to a mutual agreement. Avoid confrontation at all costs, and you are more likely to reach some kind of agreement.
Edited by Windy Miller on Saturday 24th May 01:19
Isn't it armed trespass?
I suppose they are claiming the right to roam means it isn't trespass?
BASC legal desk can probably help
https://basc.org.uk/advice/
I suppose they are claiming the right to roam means it isn't trespass?
BASC legal desk can probably help
https://basc.org.uk/advice/
Jeremy-75qq8 said:
To be fair regardless of the " Ways of the countryside " if someone was on my land with a lethal weapon I would. Of be very happy.
Happy, perhaps not, but if they are acting in accordance with the SOAC and the underpinning Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, then being unhappy is about as far as it can go. balham123 said:
Isn't it armed trespass?
No, as trespass was always a bit of a shaky claim in Scotland, and that shakiness was largely clarified by the above mentioned Act, and its guidance document, which clearly allows access with a firearm for the purpose of crossing land on the way to, and from shooting grounds. 2.14 of the CodeRight to roam is wide reaching, much to the annoyance of many landowners, usually farmers and land managers who have to deal with very inconsiderate members of the public who don't carry firearms, but do carry all manner of other "annoyances" - Generally dogs, children, disposable barbecues, litter, drones, full bowels to name but a few. A responsible FAC (Firearms certificate) holder, carrying an unloaded and cased licenced firearm, legally crossing land to carry out legal, and much needed deer control, would be one of the least concerns a landowner may have.
OP could erect deer fencing on their land, and the neighbour could do nothing about it. However, this is effectively fencing the deer into the OP's own land, and limits their movements. Having a resident herd of deer may then become less attractive! But bear in mind that Nature Scot can exercise powers to control deer if the landowner fails to do so...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-i...
However, this is less likely to be the case on 20 acres, compared to a highland estate. But there is the Deer (Scotlland) Act that could be used in other ways to control deer, even if on land that you own.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-i...
However, this is less likely to be the case on 20 acres, compared to a highland estate. But there is the Deer (Scotlland) Act that could be used in other ways to control deer, even if on land that you own.
Windy Miller said:
As a previous poster mentions, if you have recently moved to the country, or at the very least, to this address, then get familiar with country ways, or the ways of this location.
Above all, I re-iterate the point of a previous poster. Speak to your neighbours and their clients in a pro-active, civil and even friendly manner.
Thanks for your input. Although we recently moved in to a new house (built on land which we already owned for around 15 years), we have lived in the immediate vicinity for around 30 years and know and get on with almost all our neighbours.Above all, I re-iterate the point of a previous poster. Speak to your neighbours and their clients in a pro-active, civil and even friendly manner.
Our immediate neighbour however is a large corporate entity with only a commercial interest in the area.
They let out two shoots, the doe shoot over winter which is to a local syndicate and who we get on very well with, and the buck shoot which is let to an entrepreneur who runs shooting breaks for overseas visitors.
It's the overseas shooters under the guidance of the entrepreneur who are the problem.
Desiderata said:
Thanks for your input. Although we recently moved in to a new house (built on land which we already owned for around 15 years), we have lived in the immediate vicinity for around 30 years and know and get on with almost all our neighbours.
Our immediate neighbour however is a large corporate entity with only a commercial interest in the area.
They let out two shoots, the doe shoot over winter which is to a local syndicate and who we get on very well with, and the buck shoot which is let to an entrepreneur who runs shooting breaks for overseas visitors.
It's the overseas shooters under the guidance of the entrepreneur who are the problem.
Apologies for jumping to conclusion you were new to the area…Our immediate neighbour however is a large corporate entity with only a commercial interest in the area.
They let out two shoots, the doe shoot over winter which is to a local syndicate and who we get on very well with, and the buck shoot which is let to an entrepreneur who runs shooting breaks for overseas visitors.
It's the overseas shooters under the guidance of the entrepreneur who are the problem.
Overseas/out of area shooters are where we’ve had conflict from around us also.
If their behaviour is such that’s it’s bothering you I’d approach the corporate, they will not likely be getting any significant income for the shooting let, & may just stop that entrepreneur (agent) if it’s upsetting locals & generating complaints/hassle for them. (We don’t actually charge the agent that brings out clients anything to shoot with us, they just drop a bottle of wine or restaurant voucher past depending how they feel, they know their behaviour & that of clients would see their arrangement in jeopardy . In my view the fact you have no objection & get on with one group of shooters would likely carry more weight than you just objecting in general & may make the corporate look at who they’re saying yes too.
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