NHS Fleet - showing as not insured

[bobsavage789]

My wife (an NHS nurse) got a Polestar 4 on NHS Fleet last month, but hasn’t had any paperwork through (despite a few emails; she tells me there’s no contact number)…

They finally bothered to respond to her and said they hadn’t been informed that the car had been delivered. I did an insurance check, and it’s showing as not insured.

What would happen if she/I get pulled over for no insurance? Would it have been her fault for not checking and driving anyway? Would the scheme’s administration system be at fault from a legal perspective?

[paul_c123]

There is an exemption from "DWI" if its a business vehicle but if you've checked it and its not insured, that exemption would NOT be available. The legislation is here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/part/...

If its FPN, then its 6 points and a £300 fine. If it goes to court, it could be a ban and prison. Also, the vehicle would be seized. And, if its taxed but not insured, then there is the "continuous insurance" requirement which is a £100 fine normally (it would the owner responsible here though).

That's the implications if she didn't crash and needed the insurance. If she did actually have a crash.....

Edited by paul_c123 on Wednesday 28th May 11:45

Edited by paul_c123 on Wednesday 28th May 11:46

[HJG]

I would class this the same situation as using a friend's car and then finding out it's not insured (even if you're insured to drive other cars). You would be committing the offence of driving an uninsured vehicle, not your friend.

[bobsavage789]

One possibility I’ve considered is that the “keepership” has maybe not been updated with the DVLA (we’ve had no V5 for it), so the authorities may well have sent letters to NHS Fleet HQ or wherever.

[paul_c123]

Its perfectly possible that it IS insured, just that the fleet operator hasn't added it to the MID. One way to find out would be to ask for the insurance certificate, which is a reasonable request for a driver to make. Indeed, it might be stapled to the wall in the workplace.

ETA looking further at RTA (1988) 144 (2) (e), the NHS has a blanket exemption from having an insurance policy (ie they are self-insured). I believe it is still a requirement to be added onto MID though. On my policy, I don't have to do it for cars with me less than 2 weeks, and I have 2 weeks to add it, and the insurance certificate covers "any cars" so I'm covered for anything.

Edited by paul_c123 on Wednesday 28th May 11:59

[edthefed]

Driving without insurance is an 'absolute offence" so very difficult to come up with a defence if prosecuted.

However as others have said it may be covered on a fleet policy, or some large public sector organisations may "self insure" under the provisions of the Road Traffic Act.

Is it taxed...the supplying body should have checked it was taxed and insured

[XCP]

I thought NHS vehicles were exempt from tax.

[MustangGT]

XCP said:

I thought NHS vehicles were exempt from tax.

Tax, but not insurance, unless they self-insure like police forces do.

[paul_c123]

MustangGT said:

Tax, but not insurance, unless they self-insure like police forces do.

Yes they do (have an exemption from insurance), see above.

[pavarotti1980]

XCP said:

I thought NHS vehicles were exempt from tax.

Its a lease car through a salary sacrifice scheme. Definitely taxed as a few colleagues are complaining about the April 25 increases making their upcoming leases more expensive as the cost has been passed on

bobsavage789 said:

My wife (an NHS nurse) got a Polestar 4 on NHS Fleet last month, but hasn t had any paperwork through (despite a few emails; she tells me there s no contact number)

They finally bothered to respond to her and said they hadn t been informed that the car had been delivered. I did an insurance check, and it s showing as not insured.

What would happen if she/I get pulled over for no insurance? Would it have been her fault for not checking and driving anyway? Would the scheme s administration system be at fault from a legal perspective?

Tell her to go on NHS Fleet Solutions website to check

Edited by pavarotti1980 on Wednesday 28th May 14:57

[MustangGT]

paul_c123 said:

MustangGT said:

Tax, but not insurance, unless they self-insure like police forces do.

Yes they do (have an exemption from insurance), see above.

RFL - not if it is a company car scheme rather than a 'job' car. First responder cars were exempt from tax for example, but some form of insurance has to be in place whether it is self-insured or under a fleet policy. AFAIK the only vehicle allowed on the road uninsured is the one and only royal limousine.

[James.Pond]

We are always told nurses are under paid and underappreciate.

But they can afford to buy luxury SUVs for 50-75k can't be that bad, surely?!?

Is she able to charge for free on NHS network I know of NHS trusts who it goes on as well as some other large companies.

[pavarotti1980]

James.Pond said:

We are always told nurses are under paid and underappreciate.

But they can afford to buy luxury SUVs for 50-75k can't be that bad, surely?!?

Is she able to charge for free on NHS network I know of NHS trusts who it goes on as well as some other large companies.

They arent buying them they are leased through salary sacrifice schemes. As with most lease cars whether personal or salary sacrifice, prices fluctuate throughout the year and you can pick up deals if you are lucky. This was increased with generous BIK for EV's (same as company cars) but that might change in the next few years

All trusts I have worked at have charging on site but they are provided by 3rd party companies and charge through the nose in line with public chargers

Edit: the vehicle costs cannot take you below minimum wage so the cars available will depend on pay band/monthly cost etc

Edited by pavarotti1980 on Wednesday 28th May 16:38

[XCP]

MustangGT said:

RFL - not if it is a company car scheme rather than a 'job' car. First responder cars were exempt from tax for example, but some form of insurance has to be in place whether it is self-insured or under a fleet policy. AFAIK the only vehicle allowed on the road uninsured is the one and only royal limousine.

There are quite a few exceptions to the rule. Military, police and some council vehicles.

[iDrive]

XCP said:

There are quite a few exceptions to the rule. Military, police and some council vehicles.

LOTS!

Section 143 does not apply—

(a)to a vehicle owned—

(i)by the council of a county or county district in England and Wales [F10the Broads Authority], the Common Council of the City of London, the council of a London borough [F11 a National Park authority], the Inner London Education Authority, [F12a fire and rescue authority created by an order under section 4A of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004,] [F13the London Fire Commissioner,] F14... [F15, a joint authority F16... established by Part 4 of the Local Government Act 1985, an economic prosperity board established under section 88 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009 [F17, a combined authority established under section 103 of that Act or a combined county authority established under section 9(1) of the Levelling-up and Regeneration Act 2023],]

(ii)by a [F18council constituted under section 2 of the Local Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994 in Scotland [F19or the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service] , or]

(iii)by a joint board or committee in England or Wales, or joint committee in Scotland, which is so constituted as to include among its members representatives of any such council,

at a time when the vehicle is being driven under the owner’s control,
(b)to a vehicle owned by [F20a local policing body or] a police authority [F21or the Receiver for the Metropolitan Police district], at a time when it is being driven under the owner’s control, or to a vehicle at a time when it is being driven for police purposes by or under the direction of a constable, [F22by a member of a police and crime commissioner's staff (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011), by a member of the staff of the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime (within the meaning of that Part of that Act), by a member of the civilian staff of a police force (within the meaning of that Part of that Act), by a member of the civilian staff of the metropolitan police force (within the meaning of that Part of that Act), by a person employed by the Common Council of the City of London [F23in its capacity as a police authority,] [F23by a police volunteer designated under section 38 of the Police Reform Act 2002,]] or by a person employed by a police authority, F21..., or

F24(ba). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(c)to a vehicle at a time when it is being driven on a journey to or from any place undertaken for salvage purposes pursuant to Part IX of the [F25Merchant Shipping Act 1995],

F26(d). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[F27(da)to a vehicle owned by a health service body, as defined in section 60(7) of the National Health Service and Community Care Act 1990 F28...[F29or by a Local Health Board established under section 11 of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006], at a time when the vehicle is being driven under the owner’s control.

(db)to an ambulance owned by a National Health Service trust established under [F30section 25 of the National Health Service Act 2006, section 18 of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006] or the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978, at a time when a vehicle is being driven under the owner’s control]

[F31(dc) to an ambulance owned by an NHS foundation trust, at a time when the vehicle is being driven under the owner’s control, ]

(e)to a vehicle which is made available by the Secretary of State [F32or the Welsh Ministers] to any person, body or local authority in pursuance of [F33section 12 or 80 of the National Health Service Act 2006, or section 10 or 38 of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006,] at a time when it is being used in accordance with the terms on which it is so made available,

(f)to a vehicle which is made available by the Secretary of State to any local authority, education authority or voluntary organisation in Scotland in pursuance of section 15 or 16 of the M1National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978 at a time when it is being used in accordance with the terms on which it is so made available.

[F34(g) to a vehicle owned by [F35the Care Quality Commission], at a time when the vehicle is being driven under the owner’s control]

[bobsavage789]

Many things to which to reply…

- vehicle shows as taxed, so that’s one fewer thing to worry about
- it’s a salary sacrifice scheme (essentially a lease which saves some tax); would that she earnt enough to buy it outright…
- nurses are indeed fairly well compensated for a tough job (above a certain level, anyway). Apparently not well compensated enough though, as there are hundreds of thousands of unfilled clinical jobs across the NHS…
- a quick call to NHS Fleet (don’t know why she didn’t call in the first place, rather than relying on e-mail…) seems to have resolved matters, and we have now at least seen a certificate of insurance, suggesting it was insured all along, just maybe not passed on to the MIB database…

[Aretnap]

MustangGT said:

XCP said:

I thought NHS vehicles were exempt from tax.

Tax, but not insurance, unless they self-insure like police forces do.

Government vehicles, broadly speaking and including NHS vehicles, are exempt from insurance requirements. The point of compulsory insurance is to ensure that people you might injure or cause harm to are still able to get compensation if you can't afford to pay yourself - and the government has essentially bottomless pockets so will have no trouble paying any compensation awarded against it.

It would have to be being used for NHS business for the exemption to apply though - a lease car which she uses as her private vehicle isn't going to be covered by the exemption.

Self-insuring is no longer an option, unless you're specifically covered by one of the exceptions in RTA s144.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/secti...

[Aretnap]

paul_c123 said:

If its FPN, then its 6 points and a £300 fine. If it goes to court, it could be a ban and prison.

You can't go to prison for driving without insurance, unless you happen to kill someone while driving uninsured.

[Sheepshanks]

James.Pond said:

We are always told nurses are under paid and underappreciate.

But they can afford to buy luxury SUVs for 50-75k can't be that bad, surely?!?

Is she able to charge for free on NHS network I know of NHS trusts who it goes on as well as some other large companies.

She probably has to pay to park it at work though.

[MustangGT]

XCP said:

MustangGT said:

RFL - not if it is a company car scheme rather than a 'job' car. First responder cars were exempt from tax for example, but some form of insurance has to be in place whether it is self-insured or under a fleet policy. AFAIK the only vehicle allowed on the road uninsured is the one and only royal limousine.

There are quite a few exceptions to the rule. Military, police and some council vehicles.

Not at all, they are self-insured. The rules for self-insurance are quite onerous though hence it being limited to various organisations such as the military.