Amateur detectives helping the police. Any experiences?
Discussion
Fiction abounds with the clueless constable being assisted by the brilliant amateur detective. From Sherlock Holmes to Jessica Fletcher. Miss Marple to Quincy.
They seem to be given privileged access to the case then solve it before the donuts are even out of the bag.
Did this ever occur in real life? And does any serving or ex police have any experience of this?
SD.
They seem to be given privileged access to the case then solve it before the donuts are even out of the bag.
Did this ever occur in real life? And does any serving or ex police have any experience of this?
SD.
Not a copper but short answer no.
Plenty of people track down their own stolen property but that's obviously not the same as having privileged access to anything.
Most murders need very little detection at all. The culprit is generally a close acquaintance of the victim with a reputation for violence and the IQ of yoghurt. If it isn't then a wide area needs to be scoured for people matching the fingerprints or DNA found at the scene, so no lone genius would have the time.
Crimes which both need actual detection and have only a small pool of suspects, the staple of detective fiction because they are the only ones Sherlock Marple would have a chance with. Are very rare.
Plenty of people track down their own stolen property but that's obviously not the same as having privileged access to anything.
Most murders need very little detection at all. The culprit is generally a close acquaintance of the victim with a reputation for violence and the IQ of yoghurt. If it isn't then a wide area needs to be scoured for people matching the fingerprints or DNA found at the scene, so no lone genius would have the time.
Crimes which both need actual detection and have only a small pool of suspects, the staple of detective fiction because they are the only ones Sherlock Marple would have a chance with. Are very rare.
Not in my 30 years service - and that includes time before Data Protection / GPDR issues.
What did occur on occasions was the use of subject matter experts to give an opinion on something or to undertake a particular task
EG medical professionals, giving an opinion that dental records match a victim. specialist forensic work, specialist work enhancing images, handwriting experts etc
What did occur on occasions was the use of subject matter experts to give an opinion on something or to undertake a particular task
EG medical professionals, giving an opinion that dental records match a victim. specialist forensic work, specialist work enhancing images, handwriting experts etc
I understand that murder cases are rarely filled with the intrigue and strategy of Death in Paradise or Midsummer Murders too.
That's not to say it's an easy job to investigate (everyone else's job looks easy to the casual observer) but it's seldom a case of the murderer rigging a 17th century musket to shoot poison from a rare orchid at the stroke of midnight whilst they would be on national television (thus providing an alibi), taking advantage of local lore about a ghost who takes the souls of the damned.
That's not to say it's an easy job to investigate (everyone else's job looks easy to the casual observer) but it's seldom a case of the murderer rigging a 17th century musket to shoot poison from a rare orchid at the stroke of midnight whilst they would be on national television (thus providing an alibi), taking advantage of local lore about a ghost who takes the souls of the damned.
Bear in mind fiction is fictional.
I suspect irl if there did happen to be a real life Sherlock Holmes who was truly fantastic at solving crimes, as opposed to a subject expert (eg. Blood splatter expert) approached for a consult, then yes any police would be resistant at first but eventually the chance for a collar would override that once they had proven themselves a few times.
In reality the sort of people who would describe themselves as amateur detectives are probably the same sort of people who form 4x4 rescue organisations, just without the 4x4. In other words as much use to the world as a hairbrush to a bald man.
I suspect irl if there did happen to be a real life Sherlock Holmes who was truly fantastic at solving crimes, as opposed to a subject expert (eg. Blood splatter expert) approached for a consult, then yes any police would be resistant at first but eventually the chance for a collar would override that once they had proven themselves a few times.
In reality the sort of people who would describe themselves as amateur detectives are probably the same sort of people who form 4x4 rescue organisations, just without the 4x4. In other words as much use to the world as a hairbrush to a bald man.
A couple of examples spring to mind.
The most obvious example is "paedophile hunter" type groups. There's a rather Mittyesque aura to their work, but they do sometimes come up with some pretty decent results and tend to have a reasonable knowledge of what needs to be done to get a case through the court system (in other words: their statements are often pretty good, although they can overlook some of the more mundane processes around evidence and disclosure that can inevitably cause issues further down the line). They can also be frankly rather narcissistic.
The other example I suppose would be things like fraud investigators at banks/private companies although (1) many of these will be ex-police anyway or at the very least it would be unfair to describe them as "amateurs" and (2) a lot of the stuff they will do won't involve police (private prosecutions, work with other agencies, civil courts, etc).
See also the suspect who returns on bail with a 200 page dossier of their "investigation" with the promise of much more to come.
The most obvious example is "paedophile hunter" type groups. There's a rather Mittyesque aura to their work, but they do sometimes come up with some pretty decent results and tend to have a reasonable knowledge of what needs to be done to get a case through the court system (in other words: their statements are often pretty good, although they can overlook some of the more mundane processes around evidence and disclosure that can inevitably cause issues further down the line). They can also be frankly rather narcissistic.
The other example I suppose would be things like fraud investigators at banks/private companies although (1) many of these will be ex-police anyway or at the very least it would be unfair to describe them as "amateurs" and (2) a lot of the stuff they will do won't involve police (private prosecutions, work with other agencies, civil courts, etc).
See also the suspect who returns on bail with a 200 page dossier of their "investigation" with the promise of much more to come.
Edited by whimsical ninja on Wednesday 25th June 16:42
One irritating thing about fictional amateur detectives is they don't have to worry about processes relating to evidence and disclosure because the villain instantly admits guilt when confronted with even tenuous evidence.
I did try and come up with a screenplay once about a fairly realistic murder. Murderer loses his temper and victim bangs his head on something sharp, that kind of thing. But the murderer would be trying to avoid suspicion while busy with his day job of producing TV shows about cosy country house murders with all the cliches.
I did try and come up with a screenplay once about a fairly realistic murder. Murderer loses his temper and victim bangs his head on something sharp, that kind of thing. But the murderer would be trying to avoid suspicion while busy with his day job of producing TV shows about cosy country house murders with all the cliches.
whimsical ninja said:
A couple of examples spring to mind.
The most obvious example is "paedophile hunter" type groups. There's a rather Mittyesque aura to their work, but they do sometimes come up with some pretty decent results and tend to have a reasonable knowledge of what needs to be done to get a case through the court system (in other words: their statements are often pretty good, although they can overlook some of the more mundane processes around evidence and disclosure that can inevitably cause issues further down the line). They can also be frankly rather narcissistic.
The other example I suppose would be things like fraud investigators at banks/private companies although (1) many of these will be ex-police anyway or at the very least it would be unfair to describe them as "amateurs" and (2) a lot of the stuff they will do won't involve police (private prosecutions, work with other agencies, civil courts, etc).
Although both of these are where people approach the police with a new crime which had not yet been reported to or been discovered by the police. If either of those types of people approached the police offering to help with detecting that type of crime they would be turned away. Although, I recall a few years ago that it was proposed that there should be a type of "CID Special Constable" where subject-matter experts could volunteer to assist in certain types of offence.The most obvious example is "paedophile hunter" type groups. There's a rather Mittyesque aura to their work, but they do sometimes come up with some pretty decent results and tend to have a reasonable knowledge of what needs to be done to get a case through the court system (in other words: their statements are often pretty good, although they can overlook some of the more mundane processes around evidence and disclosure that can inevitably cause issues further down the line). They can also be frankly rather narcissistic.
The other example I suppose would be things like fraud investigators at banks/private companies although (1) many of these will be ex-police anyway or at the very least it would be unfair to describe them as "amateurs" and (2) a lot of the stuff they will do won't involve police (private prosecutions, work with other agencies, civil courts, etc).
Austin Prefect said:
One irritating thing about fictional amateur detectives is they don't have to worry about processes relating to evidence and disclosure because the villain instantly admits guilt when confronted with even tenuous evidence.
I did try and come up with a screenplay once about a fairly realistic murder. Murderer loses his temper and victim bangs his head on something sharp, that kind of thing. But the murderer would be trying to avoid suspicion while busy with his day job of producing TV shows about cosy country house murders with all the cliches.
Sounds rather good.I did try and come up with a screenplay once about a fairly realistic murder. Murderer loses his temper and victim bangs his head on something sharp, that kind of thing. But the murderer would be trying to avoid suspicion while busy with his day job of producing TV shows about cosy country house murders with all the cliches.
Stick Legs said:
Austin Prefect said:
One irritating thing about fictional amateur detectives is they don't have to worry about processes relating to evidence and disclosure because the villain instantly admits guilt when confronted with even tenuous evidence.
I did try and come up with a screenplay once about a fairly realistic murder. Murderer loses his temper and victim bangs his head on something sharp, that kind of thing. But the murderer would be trying to avoid suspicion while busy with his day job of producing TV shows about cosy country house murders with all the cliches.
Sounds rather good.I did try and come up with a screenplay once about a fairly realistic murder. Murderer loses his temper and victim bangs his head on something sharp, that kind of thing. But the murderer would be trying to avoid suspicion while busy with his day job of producing TV shows about cosy country house murders with all the cliches.
Austin Prefect said:
One irritating thing about fictional amateur detectives is they don't have to worry about processes relating to evidence and disclosure because the villain instantly admits guilt when confronted with even tenuous evidence.
I did try and come up with a screenplay once about a fairly realistic murder. Murderer loses his temper and victim bangs his head on something sharp, that kind of thing. But the murderer would be trying to avoid suspicion while busy with his day job of producing TV shows about cosy country house murders with all the cliches.
You mean like scooby doo ? I did try and come up with a screenplay once about a fairly realistic murder. Murderer loses his temper and victim bangs his head on something sharp, that kind of thing. But the murderer would be trying to avoid suspicion while busy with his day job of producing TV shows about cosy country house murders with all the cliches.
whimsical ninja said:
A couple of examples spring to mind.
The most obvious example is "paedophile hunter" type groups. There's a rather Mittyesque aura to their work, but they do sometimes come up with some pretty decent results and tend to have a reasonable knowledge of what needs to be done to get a case through the court system (in other words: their statements are often pretty good, although they can overlook some of the more mundane processes around evidence and disclosure that can inevitably cause issues further down the line). They can also be frankly rather narcissistic.
The other example I suppose would be things like fraud investigators at banks/private companies although (1) many of these will be ex-police anyway or at the very least it would be unfair to describe them as "amateurs" and (2) a lot of the stuff they will do won't involve police (private prosecutions, work with other agencies, civil courts, etc).
See also the suspect who returns on bail with a 200 page dossier of their "investigation" with the promise of much more to come.
I thought the Police generally took a fairly dim view of paedophile hunters ? They may well be doing the world a stirling service but sometimes they get it wrong with potential fatal consequences. I've often wondered if anyone polices their activities. Perhaps there are groups out there that hunt the hunters.The most obvious example is "paedophile hunter" type groups. There's a rather Mittyesque aura to their work, but they do sometimes come up with some pretty decent results and tend to have a reasonable knowledge of what needs to be done to get a case through the court system (in other words: their statements are often pretty good, although they can overlook some of the more mundane processes around evidence and disclosure that can inevitably cause issues further down the line). They can also be frankly rather narcissistic.
The other example I suppose would be things like fraud investigators at banks/private companies although (1) many of these will be ex-police anyway or at the very least it would be unfair to describe them as "amateurs" and (2) a lot of the stuff they will do won't involve police (private prosecutions, work with other agencies, civil courts, etc).
See also the suspect who returns on bail with a 200 page dossier of their "investigation" with the promise of much more to come.
Edited by whimsical ninja on Wednesday 25th June 16:42
These sort of amateur detectives do indeed exist and the police rely heavily upon them at times. My wife watches documentaries about several. One was a marketing specialist who settled down in a supposedly sleepy village but the local plod were constantly calling Agatha in to help. Another called Jean White was an antique dealer in a small village in France and the local chief of police relied on her so much that when he heard about the many murders, he’d call to collect her before attending the scene!
The last bloke, Jack, is a singer on a cruise ship who is such a brilliant detective that no matter where in the Mediterranean he is, the coppers turn to him for help. To be fair, he was a detective before he came second in a talent contest and took up singing so he’s not strictly amateur.
Other than those, I think a normal person would lack the specialist resources to call on.
The last bloke, Jack, is a singer on a cruise ship who is such a brilliant detective that no matter where in the Mediterranean he is, the coppers turn to him for help. To be fair, he was a detective before he came second in a talent contest and took up singing so he’s not strictly amateur.
Other than those, I think a normal person would lack the specialist resources to call on.
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