Bought a car where there is fraud in the chain of sale

[Jim on the hill]

Hi all,

Hoping for some input from the legal/insurance experts here.

I bought my dream car for £35k back in October from a well-known independent dealer it wasn't cheaper than the market so no alarm bells. Paid £500 deposit on CC, balance via bank transfer. HPI was clear at the time.

Fast forward to yesterday: The police have contacted me. It turns out the car was originally obtained via credit card fraud prior to the dealer acquiring it. The "True Owner" (presumably an insurer or the original victim) is now asserting interest. The police aren't seizing it but have confirmed the title is "clouded."

I’ve already drafted a formal rejection under S.17 CRA 2015 (Right to Supply). However, I actually love the car and want to keep it.

In an ideal situation I'd like the dealer to refund the £35k (Breach of contract/Nemo Dat).

Use that cash to negotiate a "title buy-out" directly with the original owner/insurer to "perfect the title."

Get the markers cleared and keep the car.

Questions for the PH Collective:

Has anyone successfully "bought the title" from an insurer in a fraud case like this?

Am I right in thinking I have a possessory lien over the car until the dealer refunds me? (i.e., I don't give the car back to the dealer until the £35k is in my account).

Is there any risk that the insurer can bypass me and seize the car from my driveway while I’m waiting for the dealer to pay up?

Any advice on the mechanics of "perfecting title" would be massively appreciated.

Use of AI above as it's explained a lot better than I could and I'm shattered after a very stressful couple of days of talking to the police and research.

[TonyF1]

The bank who issued the credit card own the car as they ultimately paid for it. Had similar where we owned a brand new M5 bought through a fraudulent personal loan. Car went to auction and that’s your best hope as it’s unlikely you’ll be able to find out who which bank own the car.

[Doesitdrive]

, I would be putting pressure on the dealer who sold you it to either sort the issue or refund your money.

[Jim on the hill]

TonyF1 said:

The bank who issued the credit card own the car as they ultimately paid for it. Had similar where we owned a brand new M5 bought through a fraudulent personal loan. Car went to auction and that s your best hope as it s unlikely you ll be able to find out who which bank own the car.

Thanks, not sure why I didn't think of that. Going to have a chat with the police and see if they would be happy to pass my number to them as I'm sure the credit company would like it off their books. Using the refund from the dealer obviously, certainly don't want to pay twice no matter how much i like the car!

[Jim on the hill]

Doesitdrive said:

, I would be putting pressure on the dealer who sold you it to either sort the issue or refund your money.

This will be part of the solution or the solution yes. Just trying to see if there is a better solution where the person who experienced the loss gets made right, I keep the car and I cooperate with the dealer so they can claim their loss through their insurers.

Messy I know.

[UK_Scat_Pack]

I would be getting a refund from the dealership ASAP as if and when that car gets seized, you will be left with nothing!

[cliffords]

UK_Scat_Pack said:

I would be getting a refund from the dealership ASAP as if and when that car gets seized, you will be left with nothing!

Agreed, this could turn to a position where the car is legitimately taken from you ,and you will have nothing. You bought something from someone who did not own what they were selling.
Return the car and get the full refund now .

Many years ago I used to collect cars , it's not an unusual situation you have described.

[ashenfie]

TonyF1 said:

The bank who issued the credit card own the car as they ultimately paid for it. Had similar where we owned a brand new M5 bought through a fraudulent personal loan. Car went to auction and that s your best hope as it s unlikely you ll be able to find out who which bank own the car.

It does not work like that. The credit card company will simply charge back the money from the merchant who sold the car.
So the merchant owns the car. This is not a pcp or loan situation, in terms of next steps. It the dealers issue as he had no right to sell the car. I suspect they could settle the matter with the owner without issue. Ultimately it’s going to be treated as a civil matter.

[fridaypassion]

Dealer will probably request it back so they can back it to the auction or probably came through. The dealer has been defrauded here as well the hpi system is a mess and evidently they're was no marker on it when they got it.

[Jim on the hill]

fridaypassion said:

Dealer will probably request it back so they can back it to the auction or probably came through. The dealer has been defrauded here as well the hpi system is a mess and evidently they're was no marker on it when they got it.

There is no marker on it now which I find quite strange. I carried out another HPI yesterday. It's all very strange to me.

[E-bmw]

Jim on the hill said:

fridaypassion said:

Dealer will probably request it back so they can back it to the auction or probably came through. The dealer has been defrauded here as well the hpi system is a mess and evidently they're was no marker on it when they got it.

There is no marker on it now which I find quite strange. I carried out another HPI yesterday. It's all very strange to me.

I stress I am no expert but by the sounds of it I wouldn't necessarily expect there to be a marker on it.

It hasn't been written off.

There is no outstanding finance against it.

It hasn't been imported.

There is an ongoing investigation into its history that is likely to determine fraud, but that is ONGOING.

[Jim on the hill]

E-bmw said:

Jim on the hill said:

fridaypassion said:

Dealer will probably request it back so they can back it to the auction or probably came through. The dealer has been defrauded here as well the hpi system is a mess and evidently they're was no marker on it when they got it.

There is no marker on it now which I find quite strange. I carried out another HPI yesterday. It's all very strange to me.

I stress I am no expert but by the sounds of it I wouldn't necessarily expect there to be a marker on it.

It hasn't been written off.

There is no outstanding finance against it.

It hasn't been imported.

There is an ongoing investigation into its history that is likely to determine fraud, but that is ONGOING.

That makes sense, thanks.

I've got a letter ready to send special delivery stating I need to be refunded in 7 days under the consumer rights act as they didn't have the valid title the sell.

Also awaiting a callback from the manager as I want to chat it through, will be firm but ultimately they are a good dealer and I don't think anyone will want an owner deprived or a good car to be lost to the auction system.

[WPA]

UK_Scat_Pack said:

I would be getting a refund from the dealership ASAP as if and when that car gets seized, you will be left with nothing!

Agreed, get the refund ASAP as you could lose both the car and money